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Monday, 6 December 2010

List Of (Probable) False Christian Leaders, False Christian Teachers and False Prophets (As Indicated By The Ecumenical or Heretical Organisations They Belong To)



Watch Out
Wolves in Sheep's Clothing








Last edited: 22 Aug 2011 (see in red)
Previously edited:
  • 24 Jan 2011           updated list
  • 10 Dec 2010          added details
  • 7 & 12 Jan 2011   further explanations added (see below in bold).
Further Explanations 7 Jan 2011
From the responses I'm getting, it seems that readers have not noticed my introduction of this article. I DO explain here the reasons for this article. However, just to let you know that I have answered the criticisms within the comments section of this article and have also written another article as a fuller answer to these criticisms. Please click on this shortcut link to read it:  Blog Written From Heart Of Love and Compassion. Tough Love? A Response To Criticisms.

Original Article (note: edited 22 Aug 2011 in red):
This is a continuation to Part 2 of a series regarding the history behind the recent apostate evangelical church. Please click on this shortcut link Background To Why The Twentieth Century Evangelical Church Became Apostate to read the introduction regarding the lists below and  afterwards click on Chronological Emergence Of The Apostate Church Over Last 100 Years  to see the continuation ie  part 3.

Jesus said that we should watch out for false prophets. He stated that we would know them by their fruits. The context of Matthew 7 indicates He is referring mostly to the WORDS they speak. For more on this please click on this shortcut link Do Not Judge, But Watch Out For False Prophets, Matthew 7 Explanation


We are instructed to not judge the motives of the heart in 1 Corinthians 4:4-5 but we are taught to watch out for false teaching. Therefore, I cannot produce a list of false teachers/prophets based on behaviour (because behaviour can easily be misunderstood) but I can produce a list based on false teaching. However, as I do not know 100% what each individual teaches it is rather difficult to measure if a person is false or not. BUT  we do have plenty of information about false heretical organisations (available to us) including what they teach. So, presumably any leaders of those organisations will teach and practice those false things. So my list reflects this. I wanted to make everyone aware of the leaders who are attached to these false groups.

The first list contains all the organisations that have led the church down the road of the apostate and are all ecumenical groups. The second list contains the names of all the leaders or leading characters who belong to or associate with these groups  (see note below regarding what I mean by "associate with"). The list does not mean that absolutely everybody listed is definitely a false leader, false teacher or false prophet, but there should be serious concern because of the faulty organisations they: belong to, associate with (see note below re "associate"), work for, endorse and support.


Updated 10 Dec 2010
However, it is always possible that some individuals may be ignorant about the groups they speak at, associate with or endorse. Some of these leaders may have regretted it later or even withdrawn their names (if possible). I would be more concerned if these people still deliberately JOIN these groups (or remain with them) even though the groups have been exposed as being apostate and ecumenical.  Although, we should be careful not to be too harsh on those who are only linked to one group, as they may have done this in ignorance. However, those who are attached to, or involved in, more than one group should cause us extra concern.


Added 12 Jan 2011
What I mean by "associate with"
If a church leader is simply having fellowship with another teacher (from one of those organisations) without endorsing or teaching their doctrines, that is okay, but if they start joining in with that ecumenical group (in a unification process) and lead their church down that path of joining those groups or teaching the ecumenical doctrine, then this is a bad association. It is this type of association that I am warning against. So, if teachers, leaders and prophets are encouraging believers (by their association with those groups and what they teach in support of them)  to join these ecumenical or new age groups, then their association is cause of concern. Also, my meaning of association is referring to individuals who have signed their allegiance to ecumenical groups like Westminster Declaration  and Manhattan Declaration. Everyone listed has absolutely associated (*in a bad sense) with an ecumenical or new age infected organisation (or both).


Additional Info:
By the way, I have just realised an interesting fact and will be writing something on this in due course.  I will just say something briefly now.  Many leaders (amongst the groups mentioned) were first trained or lectured at Fullers Theological Seminary. This Seminary  majors on Church growth, but is strongly ecumenical with new age ideas. Therefore, it is not surprising that the new brand of church leaders (which it produces) would emerge leading our churches in the same direction. So, it appears, that Fullers are a major reason for the evangelical church's speedy fall into increasing apostasy (apostasy means falling away from the truth into heresy).


Anyway, here are the full lists of all the heretical ecumenical organisations (within the "evangelical" umbrella) and its individual leading associates (as they stand at the moment on 18 Jan 2011) as follows:

NB. The lists are still a work in progress and will be added to or edited, as and when I have more details.


Groups
Latter Rain
Manifest Sons Of God
Fullers Theological Seminary
Word of Faith
Shepherding  Movement
Restoration and House Church Movement
New Frontiers 
Spring Harvest
New Breed
Joel's Army  and New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
Third Wave Movement
Vineyard
Toronto Blessing, Pensacola and Lakeland Revivals
Alpha
Kingsway International Church (KICC)
TBN
Seeker Friendly
Purpose Driven (Rick Warren)
Emerging Church
HillSong
Promise-Keepers 
Renovaré
Elijah List (list of prophetic Ministries)
Manhattan Declaration 
Westminster 2010 Declaration
THE MESSAGE endorsers
Jerusalem Prayer Team
Lausanne Movement (founded By Billy Graham)
International Apostolic Council (IAC)
International Coalition of Apostles (ICA)
Mission America Coalition (MAC)
American Society for Church Growth (ASCG)
Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1994

The following list of leaders replaces a list I previously gave. That older list used to appear on this earlier article  List and Details On Other False Teachers and Prophets  which was compiled on  RR's website. I had to remove the RR list as I found it too questionable to retain. Please note that that older article still exists and retains some very useful information and shortcut links which complement this article, so would still be good to refer to.

Leaders
Before you look at  the list of leaders table (alphabetical order) please familiarise yourselves with a few pointers.

Note "Emerging Church Links" is based on list found on http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm/
entitled CENTERING PRAYER, CHURCH GROWTH, CONTEMPLATIVE SPIRITUALITY,
EMERGING CHURCH, LABYRINTH, MYSTICISM, PURPOSE DRIVEN:  

Abbreviated Category
Represents
ASCG
American Society for Church Growth

ECT
Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1994 Signed  Ecumenical Document

FL5 and SM
Fort Lauderdale 5 and Shepherding Movement

Fullers
Graduated or  Faculty (Lectured) at Fullers Theological Seminary

IAC
International Apostolic Council

ICA
International Coalition of Apostles (Council Membership)

JPT
Jerusalem Prayer Team

LM
Lausanne Movement

MAC
Missions America Coalition

MD
signed the ecumenical Manhattan Declaration

Message
endorsed  "The Message" Counterfeit Bible

NAR
New Apostolic Reformation

PK
endorsed/speaker of Promise Keepers

SH
Spring Harvest

TB
Toronto Blessing

WD
signed ecumenical Westminster Declaration

WPC
World Prayer Centre Leader





TEACHER, PROPHET, LEADER

GROUPS THEY ARE MOST COMMONLY LINKED WITH, ie WHO THEY LEAD, WORK FOR, ENDORSE, SUPPORT, OR ASSOCIATE WITH
Dave Adams
New Frontiers

Julian Adams
New Frontiers

Miriam Adeney
LM

Doug Addison
Elijah List

Che Ahn
ICA, Elijah List, MD

Daniel Akin
MD

Randy Alcorn
MD

Joe Aldrich
MAC member

Rory and Wendy Alec
God TV, Elijah List

Michael Nazir Ali
WD

Lon Allison
MAC vice chairman

Beth Alves
Elijah List

Joni Ames
Elijah List

David Anderson
MD

Julie Anderson
WD

Leith Anderson
Fullers (graduated), Message, LM, MD, MAC Board

Alan Andrews
MAC Board

Ian Andrews
Elijah List

Ernest Angley
Word Faith

Gleason Archer
Fullers (Faculty)

Don Argue
MAC member

Charles Arn
ASCG Past President

Carol Arnott
Latter Rain, NAR, TB, Elijah List

John Arnott
Latter Rain, NAR, TB, Alpha Supporter, Elijah List

Kay Arthur
MD

Matthew Ashimolowo
Word Faith. KICC,

Yemisi Ashimolowo
Word Faith. KICC,

Paul Ashton
WD

David Augsburger
Fullers (Faculty)

Liz Babbs
Emerging Church Links

Mark L. Bailey
MD

George Bakalov
ICA

Heidi Baker
Elijah List

Jim and Lori Bakker
Elijah List

Colin Baron
New Frontiers

Karl Barth
Emerging Church

Ruth Haley Barton
Emerging Church Links

Don Basham
FL5 and SM

Gary Bauer
MD

Ern Baxter
FL5 and SM

Bob Beckett
Latter Rain, Joels Army

Rob Bell
Fullers (Graduated), Emerging Church,

John Belt
Elijah List

Todd Bentley
Joels Army, New Breed, NAR,

John Bevere
Word Faith, Hillsong Speaker

Mike Bickle


Latter Rain, New Breed, NAR, TB, Alpha Supporter, Elijah List, Emerging Church Links

Adrian Birks
New Frontiers

Markus Bishop
Word Faith

Tim Blaber
New Frontiers

Paul and Cheryl Black
Elijah List

Henry Blackaby
PK Leader

Bishop Charles E. Blake
JPT

William Blake
Emerging Church

Ken Blanchard
Emerging Church Links

Ron Blue
PK Speaker

Ken Boa
MD

Ryan Bolger
Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church

Shawn Bolz
Elijah List

Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Emerging Church

Reinhard Bonnke
Word Faith, MAC member

Wellington Boone
PK Leader, Message

Marcus Borg
Emerging Church

David Bosch
Emerging Church

Cynthia Bourgeault
Emerging Church

Lyndon Bowring
Elim, WD

Gregory Boyd
Emerging Church

Steve Brady
WD

William Branham
Latter Rain Founder, Manifest Sons Of God

Randy & Sarah Brannon
MD

Barbie Breathitt
Elijah List

James Brenneman
Fullers (Graduated)

Bill Bright
Fullers (Graduated), PK Speaker, JPT, ECT

Mrs. Vonette Bright
MAC member

Stuart and Jill Briscoe
Message

Troy Bronsink
Emerging Church Links

Peter Brooks
New Frontiers

Colin Brown

Fullers (Faculty)
Warren S. Brown
Fullers (Faculty)

Walter Brueggemann
Emerging Church

Jamie Buckingham
Renovare Board

Frederick Buechner
Message

Bob Buford
Emerging Church Links

Isak Burger
LM

Edward Buria
New Frontiers

Spencer Burke
Emerging Church

Jim Burns
Message

Glenn Burris, Jr
MAC Board

Luis Bush
MAC member

Nick Butterworth
Restoration

Dave Butts
MAC Board

Roger Bye
New Frontiers

Juanita Bynum
Word Faith

Christine Caine
Hillsong Speaker

Paul Cain
Latter Rain, Manifest Sons Of God, NAR

Clive Calver
SH, MAC member

Wes and Stacey Campbell
Elijah List

Tony Campolo
Emerging Church, SH, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board, Message

Peter J. Cannon
MAC member

Michael Card
Message

George Carey
Alpha Supporter, WD

G. Raymond Carlson
Renovare Board

Edward John Carnell
Fullers (Faculty)

Michael Cassidy
LM

Paul Cedar
MAC Chairman

Morris Cerullo
Word Faith

Steve Chalke
Emerging Church, SH

Willie Champion
MAC Board

Bryan Chapell
LM, MD

Gary Chapman
Message

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
Emerging Church

Martin Charlesworth
New Frontiers

Nick Chatrath
New Frontiers

Mahesh & Bonnie Chavda
Elijah List

Michel & Natalie Chevalier
Elijah List

Mark Chironna
ICA

Tapiwa Chizana
New Frontiers

James Chosa
ICA

Shane Claiborne
Emerging Church

Patsy Clairmont
Message

Heather Clark
Elijah List

Nolan Clark
Latter Rain, Joels Army, Elijah List

Randy Clark
Latter Rain, NAR, Word Faith, Elijah List

Stephen Clark
Catholic renewalists joined Fort Lauderdale 5

Gary Clarke
Hillsong Speaker

Philip Clayton
Fullers (Graduated)

Kim Clement
Word Faith, Elijah List

Anita Cleverly
WD

Steve Clifford
WD

Denny and Ann Cline
Vineyard, Elijah List

Timothy Clinton
MD

Gerald Coates
Restoration, Pioneer Network Leader, TB, Alpha Supporter, WD

Chris Cole
WD

Edward Cole
PK Leader

Bob Coleman
MAC Board

Jim Collins
Emerging Church Links

Chuck Colson
PK Speaker, MD, MAC member, ECT (Co-Signer)

Bobby Conner
Elijah List

Gordon-Conwell
PK Speaker

Graham Cooke
Elijah List

Barney Coombs
Restoration, Salt and Light Leader

Kenneth Copeland
Word Faith, Message, JPT

John Corts
MAC member

Ron Cottle
ICA

Paul and Donna Cox
Elijah List

Larry Crabb
PK Speaker, Emerging Church Links

Denny Cramer
Elijah List

Andy Crouch
Emerging Church

Jan Crouch
TBN

Paul Crouch
Word Faith, TBN

John Crowder
Latter Rain, NAR

Loren Cunningham
LM, MAC member

Jim Daly
LM, MD

Kimberly Daniels
Elijah List

Paul Keith Davis
New Breed, Elijah List

John Dawson
Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, PK Speaker

Joy Dawson
Latter Rain, NAR

Jack Deere
Latter Rain, NAR

Eric Delve
SH

Martin DeHaan
MAC member

Danny de León
MAC Board

Mark DeMoss
PK Leader

Karl Dennis
KICC

Jacques Derrida
Emerging Church

David Devenish
New Frontiers

James Dobson
PK, MD, MAC member

Shirley Dobson
MAC member

Creflo Dollar
Word Faith

Steve Douglass
LM, MAC Board

Naomi Dowdy
ICA

James T. Draper
JPT

Dave Dravecky
Message

Mark Driscoll
Emerging Church Links, New Frontiers

Phil Driscoll
Message

Malcolm Duncan
SH

Maxie D Dunnam
MAC member

Martyn Dunsford
New Frontiers

Jesse Duplantis
Word Faith

Colin Dye
Elim links with Latter Rain and Word Faith

Joni Eareckson Tada
Message, MD

John Eckhardt
ICA, Elijah List

Meister Eckhart
Emerging Church Links

Joel Edwards
New Frontiers, SH, EA, Alpha Supporter

Tilden Edwards
Emerging Church

Garris Elkins
Elijah List

Ray Ellis
ASCG Past President

Gordon England
PK Leader

Lou Engle
Elijah List

Ted W. Engstrom
Renovare Board, MAC member

Aaron Evans
Elijah List

Louis Evans
MAC member

Mike Evans
Elijah List

Tony Evans
PK Speaker

Jerry Falwell
PK Speaker, JPT

Jeff Farmer
MAC Board

Gary Fawver
Renovare Board

Gordon Fee
Message

Richard Felix
Renovare Board

Ana Mendez-Ferrell
Elijah List

Emerson Mendez-Ferrell
Elijah List

Dave Fickett
Message

Edward L Foggs
MAC member

Ken Fong
LM

Leighton Ford
TB, Alpha Supporter, Message, LM, MAC member

Theresa Forkins-Phillips
Elijah List

Faith Forster
Restoration, Renovare Board

Roger Forster
Restoration, Ichthus Leader, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board

Richard Foster
Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church, Renovare Founder, Message,

George Fox
Emerging Church Links

Matthew Fox
Emerging Church

Pat Francis
ICA

Francis Frangipane
Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, Elijah List

Jentezen Franklin
Hillsong Speaker

William C. Frey
Renovare Board

Millard Fuller
Renovare Board, MAC member

Bill and Gloria Gaither
Message

Henry Gariepy
Renovare Board

Joseph Garlington
PK Leader, Elijah List

Carl F. George
ASCG Past President

Timothy George
LM

Eddie Gibbs
Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church, ASCG Past President

Livy Gibbs
New Frontiers

Ken Gire
Emerging Church Links

John Glass
Elim, Links with New Age, WD

Martin Goldsmith
WD

James & Michal Ann Goll
Elijah List

Dr. Goodwill Shana
New Frontiers

Richard Gorsuch
Fullers (Faculty)

Ken Gott
TB, Alpha Supporter

Billy Graham
Fullers (Trustees Board), PK Speaker (taped messages at events), LM (Founder), Message, MAC member

Franklin Graham
PK Speaker

Jack Graham
JPT, MD

Amy Grant
Message

Robert Grant
Fullers (Graduated)

Joel B. Green
Fullers (Faculty)

Lynn Green
WD

Phillip Greenslade
New Frontiers

Pete Greig
Emerging Church Links

Emilie Griffin
Emerging Church Links

Vernon Grounds
Message

John Groves
New Frontiers

Wayne Grudem
New Frontiers

John Guest
MAC member

Os Guinness
LM

Kenn Gulliksen
Vineyard

Nicky Gumbel
Alpha Leader, TB, Hillsong Speaker

Madam Guyon
Emerging Church

Ted Haggard
Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR

Kenneth E Hagin
Word Faith (father of movement)

Kenneth W Hagin Jnr
Word Faith

Bill Hamon
Latter Rain,  NAR, ICA, Elijah List

Jane Hansen
MAC member

Michael Harper
Renovare Board

Greg Haslam
New Frontiers

Matt Hatch
New Frontiers

Gary Haugen
LM

Jack W. Hayford
TB, Alpha Supporter, PK Regular Speaker, Renovare Speaker, Message, JPT, LM, MAC member

David Hazard
Emerging Church Links

Keith Hazell
New Frontiers

Jack and Cynthia Heald
Message

Larry Helyer
Fullers (Graduated)

Ken Hemphill
MAC Board

Howard Hendricks
PK Speaker

James B Henry
MAC member

Les Henson
Fullers (Graduated)

Roberta Hestenes
Renovare Board

Marilyn Hickey
Word Faith

Andy Hickford
SH

Robert Hicks
PK Speaker

Scott Hicks
Elijah List

Alec Hill
MD, MAC member

Clifford and Monica Hill
WD

E.V. Hill.
PK Speaker

Steve Hill
Latter Rain, NAR, Pensacola

Benny Hinn
New Breed, Word Faith, Message

Dean Hirsch
LM

C B Hogue
MAC member

Tom Hohstadt
Emerging Church

David Holden
New Frontiers

Liz Holden
New Frontiers

Simon Holley
New Frontiers

Adrian Holloway
New Frontiers

David Hope
Alpha Supporter

John Hosier
New Frontiers

Matt Hosier
New Frontiers

Sue Hosier
New Frontiers

Judith Hougen
Emerging Church Links

Bobbie Houston
Hillsong Speaker

Brian Houston
Hillsong Founder and Speaker

Rodney Howard-Browne
Latter Rain, Word Faith, TB, Elijah List

David Hubbard
Fullers (Faculty)

Larry Huch
Word Faith

John A Huffman Jr
MAC member

Ray Hughes
Elijah List

Hannah Hunard
Emerging Church Links

George Hunter III
ASCG Past President

Kent R Hunter
ASCG Past President

Theresa Hurlbert
Elijah List

Sterling Huston
MAC Board

Bill Hybels
Seeker Friendly, TB, Alpha Supporter, PK Speaker, Emerging Church Links, Message

Bill Jackson
Vineyard

John Paul Jackson
Latter Rain, NAR

Harry Jackson Jr
Elijah List

Cindy Jacobs
Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, Elijah List

T.D. Jakes
Word Faith, Hillsong Speaker, JPT

Jerry Jenkins
Message

Willie Jennings
Fullers (Graduated)

Paul Jewett
Fullers (Faculty)

Kate and Paul Jinadu
WD

Bill Johnson
Latter Rain, NAR, Elijah List

Jan Johnson
Emerging Church Links

Andy Johnston
New Frontiers

Alan Jones
Emerging Church Links

Bob Jones
Latter Rain,  NAR, Elijah List

Bonnie Jones
Elijah List

Bryn Jones
Restoration

Laurie Beth Jones
Emerging Church Links

Tony Jones
Fullers (Graduated), Emerging Church

Rick Joyner
Latter Rain, NAR. New Breed, Elijah List, Knight of Malta

Carl Jung
Emerging Church

Dan Juster
ICA

Stephen Kaberia
New Frontiers (Kenya)

Walter Kaiser Jr
Message

Veli-Matti Kärkkäinen
Fullers (Faculty)

Reese R. Kauffman
MAC member

Malcolm Kayes
New Frontiers

Thomas Keating
Emerging Church

Tim Keller
LM

Gerard Kelly
SH

John P Kelly
ICA (2010 Presiding Apostle), IAC

Morton Kelsey
Emerging Church Links

R.T. Kendall
Alpha Supporter

Billy and Caroline Kennedy
Restoration Link, National Churches Forum UK (Leader)

Ron Kenoly
Message

Carol Kent
Message

Keri Wyatt Kent
Emerging Church Links

E.W. Kenyon
Originator of Word Faith Teachings (leading to Kenneth E Hagan’s  becoming “father” of that movement)

Jay Kesler
Message

Lawrence Khong
IAC

Sue Monk Kidd
Emerging Church Links

Søren Kierkegaard
Emerging Church

John Kilpatrick
Latter Rain, NAR

Billy Kim
PK Speaker

Joon Gon Kim
Fullers (Graduated)

Dan Kimball
Emerging Church

Tim Kimmel
Message

Patricia King
Latter Rain, NAR, Elijah List

Dennis Kinlaw
MAC member

Immanuel Kinoti
New Frontiers(Kenya)

Kiogora
New Frontiers (Kenya)

Jerry R. Kirk
Renovare Board

Denny Kline
Latter Rain, Joels Army

Mark Knoll
ECT

Stephen Gitonga Kobia
New Frontiers (Kenya)

Clarence A. Kopp, Sr.
Renovare Board

Alex Kpikpi
New Frontiers

John Kpikpi
New Frontiers

Charles H. Kraft
Fullers (Faculty), Third Wave

George Eldon Ladd
Fullers (Faculty)

Tim and Beverly LaHaye
JPT, MAC members,

Anne Lamont
Emerging Church

Richard Land
ECT

Beverley Landreth-Smith
New Frontiers

Curt Landry
Elijah List

Paul Larsen
MAC member

Greg Laurie
PK Speaker

William Law
Emerging Church Links

Vinton Lee
PK Leader

Anderson Lekesike
New Frontiers(Kenya)

Madeleine L'Engle
Message

Robert Lenguliai
New Frontiers (Kenya)

David LeShana
Renovare Board

C.S. Lewis
Emerging Church

Larry Lewis
MAC Board, ECT

David Lillie
Restoration

Bishop Nathaniel Linsey
MAC member

Stef Liston
New Frontiers

Duane Litfin
LM

Lex Loizides
New Frontiers

H. B. London, Jr
PK Leader, Renovare

Bishop Eddie L. Long
Word Faith

Tremper Longman III
Message

Peter Lord
Renovare Board

Ray Lowe
New Frontiers

T.L. Lowery
JPT

Max Lucado
PK Speaker, Message, MAC member

Martha Lucia
Elijah List

Keith and Sanna Luker
Elijah List

Carl H. Lundquist
Renovare Board

Peter Lyne
Restoration

Gordon MacDonald
Message

Hugh Maclellan
LM

Nancy Magiera
Elijah List

Peter Maiden
SH, WD

Al Maingi
New Frontiers(Kenya)

David & Karen Mains
Renovare Board

Mbonisi Malaba
New Frontiers

Alan Mann
Emerging Church

Judy Littler Manners
WD

Brennan Manning
Emerging Church

David Mansell
Restoration

Jonathan Maracle
Elijah List

Scott Marques
New Frontiers

Ralph Martin
Catholic renewalists joined Fort Lauderdale 5

Martin Marty
Renovare Board

Yaqub Masih
WD

James Earl Massey
MAC member

John Mathison
MAC member

Joseph Mattera
ICA

David Matthew
Restoration

John Maxwell
Fullers (Graduated), Hillsong Speaker, Message, MAC member

Gerald May
Emerging Church Links

John Mbui
New Frontiers (Kenya)

Campbell McAlpine
Restoration

Bill McCartney
PK Top Leader, Vineyard, MAC member

Clarence McClendon
Word Faith

Floyd McClung
SH

Ian McCulloch
Restoration

Gordon MacDonald
Message

Josh McDowell
PK Speaker, MD, MAC member

Ken McGeorge
PK Leader

Cindy McGill
Elijah List

Alistair McGrath
Alpha Supporter

Gary L. McIntosh
ASCG Past President

Paul McKaughan
MAC member

David L. McKenna
Renovare Board

Brian McLaren
Emerging Church, SH

John McLaughlan
Restoration

Hugh Maclellan
LM

Alan McMahan
ASCG Past President

Erwin McManus
Emerging Church

Reeni Mederos
Elijah List

Ana Mendez-Ferrell
Elijah List

Emerson Mendez-Ferrell
Elijah List

Thomas Merton
Emerging Church

Joyce Meyer
Word Faith, Message

Sandy Millar
Alpha Leader, TB

Calvin Miller
Renovare Board, Emerging Church Links

Donald Miller
Emerging Church

Guy Miller
New Frontiers

Keith Miller
Elijah List, Message

Joshua and Janet Mills
Elijah List

Jesse Miranda
LM, ECT

Don Moen
Message

R. Albert Mohler, Jr
MD

Jürgen Moltmann
Emerging Church

Sue Monk Kidd
Emerging Church Links

James Montgomery
MAC member

Beth Moore
Emerging Church

Derek Morphew
Vineyard

Tony Morton
Restoration

Richard Mouw
Fullers (Faculty - Current President), LM, ECT

David Mugambi
New Frontiers (Kenya)

Mel Mullen
ICA

Richard Muller
Fullers (Faculty)

Wayne Muller
Emerging Church Links

Bob Mumford
FL5 and SM

Eleanor Mumford
TB, Vineyard, Alpha Supporter

John Mumford
Vineyard

Myles Munroe
Word Faith, Elijah List

Steve Munsey
Word Faith

Mike Murdock
Word Faith

Ayub Murithi
New Frontiers (Kenya)

Nancey Murphy
Fullers (Faculty)

Michael Mutea
New Frontiers(Kenya)

Sammy Mutiria
New Frontiers(Kenya)

David J. Muyskens
Emerging Church Links

Harold L. Myra
MAC member

Michael Nazir-Ali
WD

Alex Ndombi
New Frontiers (Kenya)

David Neff
LM

Richard John Neuhaus 
ECT Catholic Co-Signer

Joseph Njagi
New Frontiers (Kenya)

John Noble
Restoration

Henri Nouwen
Emerging Church, Renovare Board

Nims Obunge
KICC

Peter Ochs
LM

Rt. Hon. Raila Odinga
KICC

Lloyd John Ogilvie
Renovare Board, MAC member

Gary Oliver
PK Speaker

Steve Oliver
New Frontiers

Jonathan Oloyede
WD

Dipo Oluyomi
KICC

Amos Onyango
New Frontiers(Kenya)

J. Edwin Orr
Fuller (Faculty)

John Ortberg
Fullers (Graduated), Emerging Church Links

Juan Carlos Ortiz
PK Speaker

T L Osborn
Latter Rain

Joel Osteen
Word Faith, Hillsong Speaker

George Otis Jr
Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR

Jane Overstreet
LM

J.I. Packer
Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board, Message, MD, ECT

Doug Pagitt
Emerging Church

Luis Palau
Alpha Supporter, PK Speaker, LM, MAC member

Tom Panich
Elijah List

William Pannell
Renovare Board

Joy Parrott
Elijah List

Les Parrott
Fullers (Graduated)

Roger Parrott
MAC Board

Rod Parsley
Word Faith, Message

Richard Peace
Fullers (Faculty)

Dennis Peacock
ICA, IAC

M. Scott Peck
Emerging Church

Kathy Peel
Message

Basil Pennington
Emerging Church Links

John Perkins
LM, MAC member

Graham Perrins
Restoration

Ben Peters
Elijah List

Eugene H. Peterson
Renovare Board, Emerging Church Links, Author "The Message"

Mark Pfeifer
ICA

Randy Phillip
PK Leader

Jason Phillips
Elijah List

Theresa Forkins-Phillips
Elijah List

Tom Phillips
MAC Board

Chuck Pierce
Latter Rain, NAR, ICA, IAC, Elijah List, WPC Leader

Michael Pierce
Latter Rain, Joels Army

John Piper
Fullers (Graduated), LM, NAR links

Becky Pippert
LM

Sam Poe
New Frontiers

Bill Pollard
LM

John Poole
FL5 and SM

Peter Popoff
Word Faith

Philip Porter
PK Leader

Simon Ponsonby
Vineyard

Don Potter
Elijah List

Fred Price
Word Faith

Paula Price
Elijah List

Derek Prince
FL5 and SM

Joseph Prince
Hillsong Speaker

Mary Pytches
Vineyard

Dennis Rainey
PK Speaker

Rollin Ramsaran
Fullers (Graduated)

Larry Randolph
Elijah List

R. Daniel Reeves
ASCG Past President

Gustave Reininger
Emerging Church Links

Tricia Rhodes
Emerging Church Links

Robert Ricciardelli
Elijah List

Wayne Rice
Message

D. John Richard
MAC member

Rick Ridings
Elijah List

Alberto Rivera
(not Chick Pub Alberto), Elijah List

Kimberly Rivera
Elijah List (not Jack Chick's Alberto)

John D. Robb
Fullers (Graduated)

Duffy Robbins
Message, Emerging Church Links

Maggie Robbins
Emerging Church Links

Cecil Mel Robeck
Fullers (Faculty)

Oral Roberts
Word Faith, JPT

Pat Robertson
(assumed Word Faith because of his strong links), MAC member, ECT

Haddon Robinson
PK Speaker

Ras Robinson
Elijah List

Tri Robinson
Vineyard

James Robison
PK Speaker

Rick Rogan
Fullers (Graduated)

Adrian Rogers
MAC member

Richard Rohr
Emerging Church Links

Richard Rolle
Emerging Church Links

Rob Rufus
New Frontiers

Ruth Ruibal
Latter Rain, Joels Army

Julio Ruibal
Latter Rain, Joels Army

Rick Ryan
PK Speaker

Thomas Ryan
Emerging Church Links

James Ryle
Vineyard, PK Founder (Spoke 1994)

Rebecca St. James
Message

Philip St. Romain
Emerging Church Links

Will Sampson
Emerging Church Links

John & Paula Sandford
Elijah List

Jerry Savelle
Message

Mark Scandrette
Emerging Church Links

Michael Scanlan
Renovare Board

Pete Scazzero
Emerging Church Links

M. Scott Peck
Emerging Church

Dale Schlafer
PK Leader

David M. Scholer
Fullers (Faculty)

Robert  A Schuller Jnr
Fullers (Graduated), Seeker Friendly

Robert H Schuller Snr
Seeker Friendly, JPT, Emerging Church Links

Chris Seay
Emerging Church

Samir Selmanovic
Emerging Church Links

Peter Senge
Emerging Church Links

Dr. Cory SerVaas
JPT

R.W. Shambach
Word Faith

Dr. Goodwill Shana
New Frontiers

David LeShana
Renovare Board

Nick Sharp
New Frontiers

Luci Shaw
Message

Tom Shaw
New Frontiers

Dutch Sheets
Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, Elijah List

Greg Shepherd
New Frontiers

Priscilla Shirer
Hillsong Speaker

David Shosanya
WD

Robert Shuler
See Robert Schuller above

Steve Shultz Leader
Elijah List

Sibs Sibanda
New Frontiers

Ronald J. Sider
Renovare Board

Ed Silvoso
Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, ICA, IAC

Brian Simmons
Elijah List

Arthur Simon
Renovare Board

Jeremy Simpkins
New Frontiers

Charles Simpson
FL5 and SM

Kent Simpson
Elijah List

Mary Lance Sisk
MAC Board

Steve Sjogren
Vineyard

Donna Smallenberg
Elijah List

Gary Smalley
PK Speaker, Message

Lewis B. Smedes
Fullers (Faculty), Renovare Board

Chuck Smith Snr ????
PK Speaker Spoke 1994

Chuck Smith Jnr
Emerging Church Links

David Smith
New Frontiers

Don Smith
New Frontiers

Judah Smith
Hillsong Speaker

Maurice Smith
Restoration

Michael W. Smith
Message

Rolland Smith
MAC member

Jim Smoke
PK Speaker

Ashleigh Smyth
New Frontiers

P-J Smyth
New Frontiers

Olave Snelling
WD

Howard A. Snyder
Renovare Board

Matt Sorger
Latter Rain, Joels Army, Elijah List

Dan Southerland
Emerging Church Links

Peter Spencer
Elijah List

Russell P. Spittler
Fullers (Faculty), Renovare Board

Wess Staford
LM

Glen Stassen
Fullers (Faculty)

Richard E. Stearns
MAC member

Dave Steell
SH

John Robert Stevens
Latter Rain, NAR, The Walk

Don Stewart
Word Faith

Mark Stibbe
TB, Alpha Supporter, WD

John Stott
LM

Joseph Stowell
PK Speaker

Karl Strader
Word Faith

David Stroud
New Frontiers, Vineyard, WD

B. V. Subbamma
Fullers (Graduated)

Bill Sullivan
ASCG Past President

Tim Sutherland
Fullers (Graduated)

Jay Swallow
Elijah List

Leonard Sweet
Emerging Church

Chuck Swindoll
PK Speaker, Message, MD

Joni Eareckson Tada
Message, MD

John Michael Talbot
Emerging Church Links

Thomas Talbott
Fullers (Faculty)

George Tarleton
Restoration (later became new ager)

Chad Taylor
Latter Rain, NAR

Mick Taylor
New Frontiers

Wade Taylor
Elijah List

Pierre  Teilhard de Chardin
Emerging Church

Tommy Tenney
Latter Rain, NAR

Brock and Bodie Thoene
Message

Gary Thomas
Emerging Church Links

Hugh Thompson
Restoration

Marianne Meye Thompson
Fullers (Faculty)

Tony Thompson
New Frontiers

Tite Tienou
LM

Robert Tilton
Word Faith

Mike Timmis
PK Speaker, a Roman Catholic and PK board member

Paul Tokunaga
LM

Elmer Towns
ASCG Past President

Patricia Treece
Emerging Church Links

Mike Treneer
LM

John Trent
PK Speaker

Ingrid Trobisch
Renovare Board

Richard Twiss
Latter Rain, NAR, Elijah List

Tommy Tyson
Renovare Board

Evelyn Underhill
Emerging Church Links

Jason Upton
Latter Rain, Joels Army, Elijah List

Kris Vallotton
Elijah List

Charles VanEngen
ASCG Past President

Stephen Van Rhyn
New Frontiers

William Vaswig
Renovare Founder

John Vaughan
ASCG Past President

Alexander Venter
Vineyard

Joel Virgo
New Frontiers

Terry Virgo
Restoration, New Frontiers Leader

Wendy Virgo
New Frontiers

Miroslav Volf
Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church

Berten A. Waggoner
Vineyard

C. Peter Wagner
Fullers (Faculty), Latter Rain, Joels Army, New Breed, NAR, ICA (Ex Presiding Apostle), IAC, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board, Elijah List, WPC Leader, MAC Member, ASCG Founding President

Doris Wagner
ICA

E Glenn Wagner
PK Leader

Todd Wagner
MD

Simon Walker
New Frontiers

Jim Wallace
SH

Arthur Wallis
Restoration

Lance Wallnau
ICA

Brian Walsh
Emerging Church

David and Kathie Walters
Elijah List

Thomas Wang
Renovare Board, MAC member

Walter Wangerin
Message

Karen Ward
Emerging Church Links

Sandy Warner
Elijah List

George Warnock
Latter Rain, Manifest Sons Of God

Neil Clark Warren
Fullers (Faculty)

Rick Warren
Fullers (Graduated), New Breed, Seeker Friendly, Emerging Church Links, Message, LM, MAC member

Raleigh Washington
PK Leader

Robert Webber
Emerging Church, Renovare Board

Barbara Wentroble
Elijah List

James White
Fullers (Graduated)

John White
ECT

John Wesley-White
PK Speaker

Mel White
Fullers (Faculty)

Paula White
Word Faith

Luder Whitlock Jr
MAC member

Warren Wiersbe
Message

Richard B. Wilke
Renovare Board

David Wilkerson
JPT

Bruce Wilkinson
PK Speaker, MAC member

Dallas Willard
Emerging Church, Renovare

Andrea Williams
WD

Don Williams
Vineyard

Pat Williams
Message

Rowan Williams
Emerging Church

Andrew Wilson
New Frontiers

Billy Wilson
MAC Board

H. Daniel Wilson
ICA

Ken Wilson
Vineyard

Peter Wilson
Hillsong Speaker

Phil Wilthew
New Frontiers

John Wimber
Fullers (Faculty), NAR, Vineyard, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board

Lauren Winner
Emerging Church Links

Ralph Winter
MAC member

Sharnael Wolverton
Elijah List

George Wood
LM

Paul Woolley
New Frontiers

N.T. Wright
Emerging Church

Dennis Wrigley
WD

Keri Wyatt Kent
Emerging Church Links

Mark Yaconelli
Emerging Church Links

Mike Yaconelli
Message

Flavil Yeakley, Jr
ASCG Past President

Barbara Yoder
Elijah List

Les Yoder
Vineyard, Elijah List

Paul (David) Yongi Cho
Word Faith, JPT

Ed Young
Word Faith

Ed Young Jnr
Hillsong Speaker

Paul Young
MD

Bill Yount
Elijah List

Michael Youssef
MD

Anthony C. Yu
Fullers (Graduated)

Ravi Zacharias
MAC member


118 comments:

Tony Cox said...

Hi John

Very good article. So many people are "afraid" to name names these days. Thanks for all your hard work. I realize the list does not include everone out there, but I don't see Perry Stone listed. he has really gained alot of fame and notoriety with the TBN crowd over the last few years.

John Chingford said...

Thanks Tony

The lists I have produced were from searching on those faulty organisations. I found the names from within each individual organisation. I simply compiled all the names (from all those different heretical,ecumenical organisations) into one complete list.

In this way, I could be sure that my list would be more reliable in naming false church leaders, especially those who are heavily involved in the worst organisations or caught up in more than one.

I felt that this type of list would be more useful than any other type of list to assist people to make up their own minds by checking out the leaders associations, rather than just simply be told that this or that person is false.

Regarding Perry Stone. As of yet, he has not been listed on any of those sites I looked at. This article is still a work-in-progress and he may appear later.

I guess one problem with this list is that there may be false leaders who are not directly committed to any of those groups but may work with them. Those (like Perry Stone) who are on the peripherals of those organisations tend not to get listed as a major player.

Hmmm, this is something which needs to be considered. If anyone can help me with a solution or can advise me of other heretical evangelical (and ecumenical) organisations which I have not already listed, please let me know.

I have already found another one which I will be adding soon ie those who were trained at the "church growth" Fullers Theological Seminary. Quite an eye opener!

John Chingford said...

Hi Guys

I have updated the list to include those graduated or lectured at Fullers Theological Seminary, which specialises in church growth, ecumenism and new age and marketing ideas.

Very interesting to note Rick Warren graduated there. Also some other very notable persons, like Billy Graham who was on the Board of Trustees.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello John

Just to agree that ‘Fullers’ is certainly notorious! Having said that, the once brilliant Dallas has also fallen. So sad.

Sue

John Chingford said...

Correct me if I am wrong, but my early observations are that Campus Crusade For Christ has also fallen victim. These are the days we are living inI It seems that Bible Colleges or Universities are falling into the ecumenical, apostolic, global emerging, new age, experiential (non scripturally based) Christianity, everywhere.

It is because our pastors have been trained in these places that they have introduced this apostasy in our day. It seems that no church is immune from being infected by false pastors who seem to be ALL on a mission/mandate to achieve the global objective of "Joels Army and the Manifest Sons of God.

Anyone reading this who bases their lives upon the Word of God and is thinking of becoming a pastor, please DO NOT enrol in a Bible University as very few can be trusted anymore. Surely you do not want to be infected also? Rather, use a good concordance, look at different versions of the Bible (not paraphrases like the irreverant "Message") and study the scriptures for yourself comparing scripture with scripture depending on the Holy Spirit as your teacher.

This is what I did and praise God He preserved me from going to these places. God instructed me in His Word directly from the Bible.

Anonymous said...

It is quite obvious that you have placed a great deal of effort and time into this, how sad. HERE'S A PROJECT FOR YOU - try supplying us a list of names of people you and others don't feel are 'false Christian leaders'. Or will you just be supplying your name?

John Chingford said...

Hi Anonymous,

Normally I wouldn't publish this sort of comment because of its unpleasant nature. However, I decided yo publish this one because I felt I needed to clarify some things.

Firstly, there are still some sound biblical ministries in existence, who do not exploit, distort, abuse deceive, mislead the multitudes. I am only listing organisations (and their people) who do these terrible things.

Secondly, if you look at "my links" you will see a number of organisations and individuals I respect as ones who (amongst all odds) TELL THE TRUTH.

Thirdly, the Bible makes it plain that we should expose the false teachers and false prophets. The New Testament frequently names names. We should be very angry with those who are trying to lead the evangelical protestant church back into the clutches of the Babylonic Roman Catholic Church from which we had previously been freed.

The Organisations listed by me, are ALL ecumenical (or New age influenced) groups who are uniting with Rome. As Jude told us, we need to be earnestly contending for the TRUE faith once delivered to us and confront these people who are (effectively) working for the Vatican by leading us all to join the ecumenical train.

My list is based on an attempt to awaken us to realise how we are all being seduced by these false guys to become one with Rome and the one world global apostate religion. Let us RETURN to the Bible for our instructions and no longer be misled by MERE man.

I speak these things out of a heart full of compassion, love and concern for all my true believers in Christ, that they BE NOT DECEIVED by any man or Christian leader who denies the Scriptures as the ONLY standard for our faith.

John Chingford said...

When I mention the Bible, of course I mean Bibles which are translated directly from the original manuscripts of the Bible.

These original manuscripts were recognised by all, as the inspirational writings (canon) of truth (ie, does not include the apocrapha). So, the "false" paraphrases which are simply the author's personal and biassed interpretation cannot be considered as THE BIBLE as they are not direct translations from the Manuscripts.

Please do not consider "The Message", "Living Bible" "New Living Translation" or any other paraphrase or interpretations of the Bible (which were not from the original manuscripts) as your BIBLE because they actually distort the true message. Note: many use these paraphrases to support their ungodly agendas.

Those versions which can be used (reliably)as the WORD OF GOD are as follows: KJV, NIV, NKJV, NASB. I like to use these in combination to compare with each other so as to arrive at the correct meaning on the difficult passages.

There is actually no difference (in meaning)in the translations of these apart from using slightly different words to describe the same thing. By comparing the different versions it helps us to understand the true meaning better.

By the way, the NIV is very easy to read, so we really do not need paraphrases anyway!

Expected Imminently said...

Anonymous said “It is quite obvious that you have placed a great deal of effort and time into this, how sad. HERE'S A PROJECT FOR YOU - try supplying us a list of names of people you and others don't feel are 'false Christian leaders'. Or will you just be supplying your name?”

Hello John

This is a ‘backhanded compliment’, as your effort and time for The Lord has been noted and you have set a good example.

As the suggested ‘project’ is already in service; should simple logic have been used by ‘Anonymous’, it would have given this reticent person nothing to write about!

It’s patently obvious that this has been written by one who is badly informed of Scripture, as the writer is unable to grasp the cause of ‘contending for the faith’, thereby unable to recognise it’s being effected on this site.

This, in reality, is what is truly ‘sad’.

These two premises leads me to the conclusion that if their ‘fellowship’ is not already on the list, it probably should be! Perhaps, if they should remove their mask, you would be in a position to judge this fairly.

For the convenience of Anonymous.

Contend.
Jude1:3,4 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints for certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rebuke.
2Timothy 4:2, Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, REBUKE, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

1Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning REBUKE in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

Naming names.
Acts5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

Galatians 2:11 (Paul said) Now when PETER had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

vs.12 for before CERTAIN MEN CAME FROM JAMES, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

vs.13: And the rest of the JEWS also PLAYED THE HYPOCRITE with HIM (Peter), so that EVEN BARNABAS was carried away with their hypocrisy.

vs.14. But when I saw that they were NOT STRAIGHFORWARD ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL, I (Paul) said to PETER BEFORE THEM ALL, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

Galatians 3:1 O FOOLISH GALATIANS! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

Etc.

Sue

John Chingford said...

Thanks EI for your very useful contribution.

I find it very sad how some "so called" believers can be so hateful in their comments, but even more heartbreaking is that these people are SO VERY ignorant of clear Bible teaching. We are living in days when these people DO NOT know their Bible! This is what saddens me the most. We all have availability to the living Word of God and do not respect it enough to study it properly.They live their lives based upon unscriptural ideas like the emerging manifest sons of God and impartations and false anointings via experiences apart from the Bible.

By the way EI, did Barry Smith believe in the rapture?

RomaLynn said...

Contend.
Jude1:3,4 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints for certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.


I concur and as we all know many people do not want to wake up today.

Keep up the good fight.

John Chingford said...

For those interested, I have found a you tube video of Barry Smith of 1995 teaching on the second coming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhIhe7Q6udk

In this video he clearly states that he believed in Mid Tribulation Rapture, ie 3.5 years after the 7 year peace treaty was signed.

Does anybody have evidence whether he ever changed his view to "no rapture" between 1995 and his death? I say this because there are those who are very influenced by Barry and some who quote Barry when it comes to their end times views.

Anybody who wants to deny that there will be a rapture (at some point) are NOT being true to themselves in their interpretations of the scriptures. If anybody deliberately twists the scripture (for their own agenda) rather than being honest with God by accepting the WHOLE Word of God (in purity and humility) it tells me that they are probably not born-again. I mean, why would they do such things unless they have an evil unregenerate heart?

John Chingford said...

I am not referring to those who have different views regarding the rapture because the scriptures are not 100% clear on when it will take place - although the overwhelming evidence is that it will be "pretrib" but I will never force that viewpoint over.

I am referring to those who deliberately ignore the scriptures that CLEARLY refer to "a" rapture or "translation" or "caught up - harpazo" or "gathered together" all terms which refer to a rescuing from the Earth at some point during the Tribulation.

To deny a rapture is to deny the Bible, which CLEARLY teaches a rapture. To deny the Bible is to deny Jesus. To deny Jesus is to be unsaved.

John Chingford said...

Hi EI,
Thanks for your last comment which I will now publish on my rapture article.

As this article is to do with false groups and leaders and not about the rapture debate, I will not say anymore on the Rapture debate here.

The reason I have already touched upon it here is because it was applicable to "false teachers" or "false groups". I wanted to make that final point (above) that anyone who ignores that the Bible mentions a rapture (snatching away) and/or rejects anything in the Word of God, MUST be a false believer because the Holy Spirit would NEVER lead a believer to reject anything in the Bible.

I will now transfer all subsequent comments re the rapture, to my article on the rapture, although I (myself) will not get dragged into the debate on WHEN the rapture will take place. Please go to:

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-rapture-and-end-times-stance.html to continue the conversation.

Mark said...

Hi John,
I have looked a bit at your site, but not by any means read all of it. I am shocked by your suggestion that anyone who fails to share your view on the rapture cannot be saved. Was anyone saved prior to J.N.Darby?

I am well aware of the history of the Restorationist movement in the UK.

What evidence do you supply for accusing newfrontiers of “working with Rome” and “New Age occultic practices”? I would agree that some restorationist groups have become ecumenist and “almost liberal”, but neither are charges that are fairly laid at the doors of newfrontiers.

John Chingford said...

Hi Mark

In addition to this article and the given links:

Here is the history behind the New Frontiers Movement which shows why it is a dangerous group to be involved in.

Some time ago I read Terry Virgo’s blog. He did not and will not condemn false revivals like Todd Bentley’s so called Lakeland Revivals. Of course he wouldn’t because New Frontiers are on the frontline of these “experiential” revivals like Toronto.

Here is an excerpt (written before the Lakeland revival) to prove the point from:

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html

“Branching out from their former isolation and tight doctrines, they have become ecumenistic, almost liberal, and are networking with every church group imaginable. The restoration fellowships, together with Elim Pentecostal fellowships, were in the forefront of the Toronto, Promise Keepers and Pensacola controversies, just as they had promoted the Kansas City Prophets earlier on.

Restoration teachings are responsible for infecting almost every branch of British church life, and their goal of full visible unity seems to draw nearer every year, as successive churches succumb to their influence.”

This link:

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html

also gives the full history behind the New Frontiers movement.

As I (myself) got drawn into them during the 1980′s and 1990′s I DO know that these things are TRUE.

Hopefully, in about 3 or 4 weeks, I will complete my work and post articles which will answer your questions in entirety.

However, for now, let me start by asking some questions:

John Chingford said...

Part 2 Cont.
Does New Frontiers support any of the following:

Latter Rain,Manifest Sons Of God,
Word of Faith, Shepherding Movement,Spring Harvest, New Breed, Joel’s Army, New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), Third Wave Movement, Vineyard, Toronto Blessing, Pensacola and Lakeland Revivals, Alpha, TBN, Seeker Friendly, Purpose Driven, Emerging Church, HillSong, Promise-Keepers, Renovaré,Elijah List (list of prophetic Ministries), Manhattan Declaration, Westminster 2010 Declaration, THE MESSAGE, Lausanne Movement, International Apostolic Council (IAC), International Coalition of Apostles (ICA)

All of these are ecumenical (ie links with Rome) and some of them have incorporated new age practices. If anyone or any group are joined to any of these, they are also part of the ecumenical train because these have all been infected by Rome.

Did you know that the history behind the restoration movements came out of the Latter rain movement and was heavily inluenced by the shepherding movement and the Lauderdale 5.

In the 1960′s we had Vatican II ecumenical resolution. From this time onwards, the Vatican have been seeking ways to get protestants back into their fold and have used any means.

1971 The first international charismatic conference held in Guildford in 1971 was described by some as the “Coming of Age of The Renewal” yet it was attended by 40 Lutherans and 30 Roman Catholics and one of the main speakers was Kevin Ranaghan. “Mr Pentecost” David Du Plessis was also there.

In 1972, Cardinal Suenens became intimately involved in the Renewal and introduced it to the Catholic Charismatic movement

In 1974 Martin and Clark teamed up with the ‘Fort Lauderdale Five’ (Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Derek Prince, Don Basham & Ern Baxter – former secretary to William Branham), who were the founders of the Shepherding Movement, which later became known as the Charismatic Movement (yes, friends, the Shepherding came first!).

They were joined by John Poole, another latter Rain adherent. Together these men established a group for ecumenical renewal.
A council was elected whose existence was kept secret as it was not acceptable at the time for Protestants to ‘labour in the Gospel’ with Catholics.

For the fledgling Shepherding Movement the money and power of the Vatican were attractive: for Martin and Clark it was a golden opportunity to begin implementing the ecumenical and Charismatic aspirations of Vatican II

John Chingford said...

Part 3 Cont.
I heard from Terry Virgo’s own lips on video, how he supports Toronto and Lakeland and does not condemn the false practices and teachings of the CATHOLIC sent Todd Bentley.

If you look at the history (which I will reveal in due course) of Latter Rain you will see it has occultic origins.

You say that New Frontiers is separate from Restoration churches. However, it is easier to get out of the restoration movement than it is to get the restoration movement out of New Frontiers.

Terry Virgo is still heavily influenced by his background and shows this by leading New Frontiers down the same path as the Latter Rain, Joels Army, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, New Apostolic Reformation, Promise Keepers are following. No wonder NF follow the false revivals.

If I am wrong, please prove it to me. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong, but the evidence is overwhelming that New Frontiers leadership are influencing the churches to become ecumenical and encouraging everyone to follow the new paradigm of experiences in place of and above what the Bible teaches.

For example C Peter Wagner teaches that new revelation is just as important as revealed Biblical Truth and that “the end justifies the means”. Where does the Bible say that? In fact the Bible teaches the opposite. So deception and using occultic practices is okay if it produces decisions for Christ? NO WAY!

C Peter Wagner has got his fingers in countless pies and seems to be one of the greatest influences of the evangelical and charismatic churches becoming ecumenical in our day.

Quite honestly, the New Frontiers (born out of the restoration movement) has a very questionable foundation and DEFINITELY associates with “so called” charismatic catholics. They are still Catholics and choose to be attached to Rome (even if they are charismatic) and still part of the Vatican II resolution to bring about the unifying of evangelical churches to Rome. If anyone or any group associates with Rome (in any way) they are ecumenical.

John Chingford said...

Mark
One other thing.

Please re-read the introduction to my list which stated as follows:

“The list does not mean that absolutely everybody listed is definitely a false leader, false teacher or false prophet, but there should be serious concern because of the faulty organisations they: belong to, associate with, work for, endorse and support.”

“we should be careful not to be too harsh on those who are only linked to one group, as they may have done this in ignorance. However, those who are attached to, or involved in, more than one group should cause us extra concern.”I made it clear that I was not categorically saying that everyone on my list was a false leader.

I cannot judge individuals and where they stand before God, but we can judge an organisation if it proves to be unbiblical, ecumenical and heretical.

The individuals are listed to simply show what groups they associate with. It is up to these individual leaders to decide (facing the evidence being given) if they want to continue their association, but is recommended that they seek the Lord seriously over the issues being presented and check the Bible (honestly) for themselves.

The list is also for those who want to know which leaders to avoid. Now that I have given this information, it is up to the inquirers to make up their own minds which teachers they should or should not listen to.

John Chingford said...

Hi Mark

Regarding the rapture:

***(note: I have removed my previous comment on this because I realise that I was wrong in something I said and will now give you a replacement)***

Replacement:
Just to clarify. I DID NOT SAY that those who hold a different view of the rapture to mine are unsaved. I said that those who hold a “NO RAPTURE” view are probably not born-again.

Reason being, because the scriptures are VERY CLEAR that there IS a rapture (or Enoch type translation of the church. "He was not for God took him". The same happened with Elijah).

To deny or reject any parts of the WORD OF GOD is tantamount to rejecting or denying Jesus.

If I am wrong, please prove it.

To clarify further:

When a person is truly born-again of the HOLY Spirit the Holy Spirit lives within that Christian. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and gives us the revelation that the Bible is the infallible, inspired Word of God.

The Holy Spirit teaches us from the Bible and confirms that the Bible is spiritual food for our souls and IS TRUTH.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit will not teach a believer that he can ignore any parts of scripture.

There are clear scriptures which teach that there will be a rapture (or translation, snatching away, gathered together, caught up into the clouds etc – all mean the same thing). “One man will be taken, the other left behind”.

If anyone chooses to ignore all the references to these and state that there will be NO rapture is to deny the Very Word of God which the Holy Spirit would never do – if He is within a person.

The scriptures say that “he who does not have the Holy Spirit does not belong to God”. So the one who deliberately rejects clear scripture cannot be led by the Holy Spirit. “Those who are led by the Holy Spirit are sons of God”.

I admit that a born-again believer can still sin. The difference is that a saved believer will never be happy sinning and will always come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

A believer DOES NOT habitually sin in word, deed or thoughts because he wants to please the Lord and because he has become a new creation in Christ and cannot live like that anymore. If he sins he cannot rest until he confesses it to his Lord.

So, what about those who deliberately and habitually twist the scriptures and deliberately teach and practice error, without repentance?

It is true that we may misinterpret scripture, especially difficult subjects like whether the rapture is pre, mid or post etc. I am not addressing that.

But to deliberately ignore all references to words which mean rapture and state "there is no rapture" deliberately and habitually closing your heart and mind to this, would indicate a closed heart to God - maybe even not being born-again or "saved".

John Chingford said...

Part 2 Cont.

I may have given the impression that I believed that everybody who believes in a "no rapture" is unsaved. If so, I apologise. I realise there are some believers who have not been saved long and probably don't even know of the word rapture. Those who do not know their bibles, may be ignorant about these clear teachings. However, once the (truly born-again) believers have been enlightened of these clear teachings, the Holy Spirit will speak to their hearts about these verses.

The truly saved believer will accept ALL scripture and will not reject anything and therefore, will accept clear teaching.

The unsaved person, once confronted by these truths (if they don't like what they are reading) will reject it. This is surely one evidence whether someone has truly been born-again or not?

As stated in the book of Acts Be a Berean and “check the scriptures daily to see if what I am saying is true”. If I am wrong, please show me from scripture taken in context.

By the way even the word RAPTURE IS mentioned in the bible.

The word "rapture" comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in 1 Thes 4:17. The english words "caught up" are translated from the Greek word harpazo (from the original manuscripts)which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily."

The translation from harpazo to "rapture" involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word "rapture.", ie meaning being caught up or snatched away (like Enoch and Elijah).
By the way, Harpazo is a derivative of ‘haireo’ meaning to ‘lift up.

Also consider where those alive at the Rapture of the true invisible Church meet The Lord together with the resurrected ‘dead in Christ’; it is in the CLOUDS. The Greek translation of ‘clouds’ is ‘nephelē which is used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness used in The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the O.T.

This is no fluffy, nebulous drift of water vapour; this is part of the ‘shekinah’ the visible ‘glory of God’.

The meeting takes place in the AIR, the atmospheric region surrounding planet earth. It is a sudden event. This is described as imminency, it is an ‘overhanging’ event that could happen at any moment. Paul called it a ‘mystery’ meaning it is not revealed in the O.T., only in the N.T. 1Cor.15:51-54. Jesus comes to rescue His true Church from ‘the wrath to come’. 1Thess.1:10.

John Chingford said...

The reason I take a strong line on this is because it is the Kingdom Now and Dominionists who preach a "no rapture" view because of their ungodly hidden agendas for World Conquest. They fit into the glove of the NWO and are a return to the ungodly, Babylonic blasphemous days of Vatican rule. They want to return us to the "dark ages" of Catholic dominion which was VERY unChristlike and was clearly led by those who were NOT born-again.

Those who are pushing us to follow back into that dark age are showing similar fruit and behaviours of those dark ages. This is why I ask the question "is it possible that those who deliberately reject the scriptures and twist them to squeeze a false doctrine out are actually not saved?

Barb said...

How on earth did you come up with these 'false' leaders and organisations?

Spring harvest and hillsong have brought so many people to God who, as a result will be going to a heaven..a place where I'm pretty sure you wont be welcome.

John Chingford said...

Hi Barb

I have cut out some of the uhelpful things you wrote and just showing the part which I feel nedds to be answered. I would value my other readers replying also.

I have already explained how I produced the list and why. The reason Spring Harvest and Hillsong are included will become apparent in due course, once I have time to complete my project which will include why these organisations are becoming apostate or ecumenical.

Basically, any group that holds hands with the Catholic Church are returning back to the days of spiritual darkness of the dark ages.

I have already explained on one of my articles why the Catholic church is a false counterfeit religion - straight out of old Babylonic religion, so anybody who unites with them is becoming part of the apostate movement away from the true God. True pure Christianity of the reformation was fought for "protested" for against the Catholic Church in the 16th Century. Why are we returning back to it?

Spring Harvest have apostates who preach there. They are going in the direction of the New Age and Catholic inspired Emerging Church with Steve Chalke and McLaren et al. The teaching is highly a distortion of the Word of God and teaches that experience is more important than the Word of God. But actually it is the Bible which is a plumbline to check whether experiences are of God or not.

Hillsong is all about "entertaining self" and is highly ecumenical. I will be saying more on this in due course

John Chingford said...

Regarding taking people to heaven.

How do you know that SH and Hillsong are bring people to God? It is rather subjective! What I actually see is a watered down "experience" or self centred gospel being preached which produces fruit after its kind. The "conversions" tend to produce superficial Christians who may have never known what REAL repentance is and their born-again experience may simply be just an experience or feeling which does not last!

Yes, in spite of the false gospel God may save some because He is SOVEREIGN and He can save some regardless, but that should not be an excuse for us to excuse their counterfeit message.

I know that in the late 1970's and early 1980's SH was much more scriptural but it is no longer so.

Katy said...

I'm sorry. I am probably very stupid but I find this stuff very difficult.

Whenever I read the Bible, the translations you recomend,I do see that all of this stuff about Rapture is important and I am not saying that this isn't a debate worth having and that we don't need to hold leaders to account for the truth that they preach BUT, no matter how many times I read the gospels (with your understanding of it in mind) I am overwhelmed by a sense that the big stuff is being missed.

I think Jesus cared deeply about the stuff you are talking about, but most of the time his biggest concern is love. I read Matthew 25 and can't stop myself believing that this is actually the heart of Jesus' message, that more then our understanding of our relationship with God, it is the IMPACT of that realtionship that matters.

Afterall Jesus said 'By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another'

not you will know who my disciples are because, having fully recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit, gven sufficient time they are fully aware of the means and method of their salvation, have clear understanding of the last days and are completely certain of the wholistic divine authority of the scriptures that are to come.

I'm sorry I probably sound ridiculous but I don't see much of the love centred Jesus who who fought for the poor and lowly and disadvantaged whilst showing love to the sinners and the outcasts in the stuff you post.

I find this all very confusing, you tell me that the Bible is the word of God that I must take seriously, but no matter how I read it, I can't square your vision of Jesus with what the Bible says about his life and I just feel lost.

I have read much of and researched the work of some of the people on your list and when I look at the way that they live their lives, their care for those who hungry, naked, thirsty, imprisoned, (the things Jesus specifically asks us to look out for) I see the IMPACT of something and if that seemingly Jesus like love is not the impact of the God I follow I don't understand the gospels at all.

Can you explain this to me?

John Chingford said...

Hi Katy

Welcome to this blog. Thanks for your questions. Wow, a lot of questions and implications in your comments. I will try to tackle them generally and point you to articles which give answers to your questions.

please first read these following articles:

Why Jesus Is The ONLY Way To Heaven and How To Be Saved http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-jesus-is-only-way-to-heaven-and-how.html

How To Be Truly Saved and Be Certain Of Going To Heaven
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/03/how-to-be-truly-saved-and-be-certain-of.html

What Is Repentance?
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-is-repentance.html

Qualities Of True Biblical Leadership Compared To the False Teachers
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/10/qualities-of-true-biblical-leadership.html

We Are No Longer Under Law But Under Grace! What Does That Really Mean?
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/01/no-longer-under-law-but-under-grace.html

How To Handle False Teaching And Strange, Different Teachings
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-to-handle-false-teaching-and.html

My Rapture and End Times Stance
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-rapture-and-end-times-stance.html
(Read just the introduction to this article as it explains my stance that other teachings like loving one another are more important than our end times stance)

The Importance Of Combining Discernment With Love
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/02/importance-of-combining-discernment.html

Are Our Experiences More Important In Our Christian Faith Than knowing Him through His Word?
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/02/are-our-experiences-more-important-in.html

John Chingford said...

Cont
Katy much of what you say is absolutely correct. My articles listed above should prove that I am very concious NOT to miss the BIG stuff. From these articles you will see I try to keep a good balance and to NOT get sidetracked away from the Truth.

Jesus did not say that loving one another saves you. He simply stated that TRUE believers would be noticed because of their love for one another. This love is unique.

This love, is not of human endeavour because the flesh (sinful nature) can never love in the way Jesus is referring to. This love is from the Holy Spirit as a segment of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

We are not disciples because of the love we generate (in our own strength) but we love because WE ARE disciples (because we have already been changed). We first need to be born-again of the Holy Spirit before we can start loving in this supernatural way.

As Jesus stated, even the unsaved do works of love in helping the less fortunate. Our love should FAR exceed the love of the unsaved caring people. It HAS to be supernatural (of the Holy Spirit) because we cannot generate that ourselves.

Jesus said that some will come to Him saying "we did this in your name and that in your name". Jesus told them He never knew them. They may have produced the "acts" of being a disciple but they were never born-again. It was all of SELF effort.

Regarding Matthew 25 and the goats and the sheep. This is referring to
those who are left behind AFTER the rapture. The dispensation and rules of salvation change somewhat after the rapture. The sheep are those who treated the Jewish people kindly during the Tribulation. Jesus was primarily talking about Israel and maybe those who are saved after the rapture(at this point) and NOT the church (because the Church has been raptured).

Regarding love. Sometimes love can be tough! "faithful are the wounds of a friend". Jesus had great compassion on the scribes and pharisees. He said "how often I would have gathered you together under my wings but you would not". Jesus then (out of a heart full of compassion and love)said "woe to you scribes and pharisees" in Matthew 23.

Jesus often spoke seemingly harshly to the hypocrites and superficial followers. If Christians spoke in similar ways, we are criticised as being "unloving". Love is not a warm, fuzzy feeling, saying the right things diplomatically. Love can be tough at times.

Truth can be painful! 1 Corinthians 13 is an excellent passage on DIVINE (agape) love and how it works through us, but that chapter is not the only passage on love. John writes about love in his gospel and in his letters. John shows what tough love is like.

Katy said...

Hi thanks for getting back to me. I hope I'm not asking too many question! some of that makes sense eg the sheep and the goas bit but I think tha you misunderstand me. I am not saying that I think people are saved by their love acytions, I am saying if this is the way that people are able to identify Christians because they have been saved. I am saying just that, the way some of these people, who are claiming Jesus as their Lord and sviour, have such enourmous and unflinching capasity to love, must mean that we need to think carefully before claiming they are apostates? That is not to say that their actions save them but that their actions suggest salvation surely, by Jesus' own measure?

I hope too I have not give the wrong impression on my views on love. I do not think it is a flufy wooley thing at all. I tink it is very important that we can speak out (sometimes painfully) when someone goes astrey. I see that this is completely Biblical and needed, however I question somwhat the way that you have done it. Yes question the authority of organisations, but to name individuals in the extreme terms that you have out of the context of relationship (as I'm guessing you have spoken with very few of these people), which is where ALL of th Biblical teaching on saying difficult truth seems to point, you sight Peter and Paul- who had context and dialogue. I find this especially difficult as you yourself admit many of these people may not hold the views you object to so vehemently. Jesus seems to always have these awkward conversations in front of people in relationship context. I'm just not certain if this is the way to make a point, it does not sit comfortably with the gospels to me.

Also I find your list on closer inspection confusing. For example you have mentioned Derrida, a philosopher who never even CLAIMED to be a Christian. You have also listed a number of other philosophers and theologians who died long long long before things like emering church, which they are linked to (eg Kierkeguaard) so I find this a little misleading. We cannot be sure of what their position was with regards to this, even if their theological position points in thatdrection thecannot b said to be affiliated with it in the true sense of the word.

Thanks

Katy

Expected Imminently said...

Barb said: "Spring harvest and hillsong have brought so many people to God who, as a result will be going to a heaven..a place where I'm pretty sure you wont be welcome".

“When Jesus spoke to the multitudes, it can be said His teaching literally ‘brought so many people to God”. They literally stood face to face with God.
The premise above, put forward by Barb, concludes that as a result these people will be going to heaven. I fear that proposition is based upon wishful thinking rather than Biblical fact.

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

These people were entertained by the miracles which were designed to prove to Israel that Jesus was fulfilling O.T. prophecy and was their long promised Messiah. Receiving this spiritual truth would give them ‘Bread from Heaven’; but it totally escaped them, as they looked for a full belly of the temporary bread that the earth provides.

Did meeting God face to face mean these people would be going to heaven?

Jesus said to the people in John 6:36 “But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not”.
Vs41 “The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven”.

The people did not like the answer Jesus gave to them.

Jesus explained to the people who stood before Him the Truth about who He is to Vs.58 “This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever”.

The people who had been brought to God had enjoyed the entertainment and their stomachs were now satiated. But they were offended when Jesus reiterated His teaching Vs. “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, EXCEPT it were given unto him of my Father’”.

The result of all those people being brought before God is recorded in 6:66 “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Vs.67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Vs.68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. Vs.69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God”.

The Biblical conclusion does not remotely suggest that if people are brought to God by entertainment that they will ‘as a result be going to heaven’. Peter recognised and accepted who Jesus was and actively BELIEVED in Christ.

John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME”:

That is the ONLY way people can get to heaven! And EVERYONE is VERY welcome.

Sue

John Chingford said...

Thanks EI for your contribution and thanks Katy for your further response.

I agree with EI and also accept much of what you say Katy.

About 5 years ago I was making the same statements as you. I found it extremely difficult to accept that these people which I had respected for a long time were false. I argued in the same way as you.

However, I cannot ignore truth and cannot close my ears to something which I don't like without investigating those claims.

That started me on a journey of questioning all the "iffy" interpretations of scriptures, handed down to me, which I had previously trusted.

This meant a REAL and thorough study of the Bible and internet searching over those accused ministries.

In most cases I found the claims of false ministries to be true. This blog is a result of my findings.

Regarding those who "seem" to live loving wondertful Godly lives, remember only God knows what is truly going on in their hearts.

Just because a person practices love (example Mother Theresa) does not make them a true teacher. By their fruits (standing upon the Word of God)will you know the true and false teachers.

Jesus said that out of the abundance of your heart you speak. So what they speak (false doctrine)fruit, shows far more what is in their hearts than "acts" of kindness.

John Chingford said...

Katy

You are probably right about some names on the list. yes it may be confusing (in some cases). Many of these names I have never heard of. I got these lists from the different reputable apologetics ministries. They simply listed the names of leaders working within each organisation. I collated all those lists into just one chart.

As I stated, it is up to my readers to check these people out themselves, but I just wanted to highlight that these people had identified themselves within these false, apostate, ecumenical (new age influences) groups.

Barb said...

I agree that everyone is welcome and I shouldn't have said that in my last comment. I also know how people get to heaven and still stand by what I say in that spring harvest and hillsong have brought people to God.

I totally disagree with what your saying though. I have to be honest.. I dont understand what most of the words your using mean. I cant see how you think you are doing right by naming these people and organisations false. I noticed you've also included the alpha course...which has also brought people to God and many people have been saved by doing it.

Times are changing and the Christian faith is dying out, different methods need to be used to bring people to God and to make christianity 'recent' and something people can relate to. If this is through song and events such as spring harvest then so be it!

I'm young myself (20) and am very lucky that I have been brought up in a christian family and have a relationship with God. Out of all my friends I have one christian friend, I believe something huge has to be done!

If you knew every single person on your list and had listened to everything they had to say then fair enough...however I doubt very much that this is the case so I disagree strongly with what you are doing.

John Chingford said...

Hi Barb

Please check through all the above comments by all the contributors. Especially take note of Expected Imminently's comments which are spot on.

It must be so difficult with those coming to faith in Jesus, these days because most of these came to faith through a watered down version of the gospel.

The expression used a lot is "we must be relevant". This is usually an excuse to preach a marketing type of message, ie tell the people a message they are more likely to respond to, ie give them what they want and NOT what they need.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. His message IS ALWAYS relevant and should NEVER change because HE never changes. The "old" message is relevant, ie we are all sinners who are lost in trespassies and sins and need Jesus to save us. We need to REPENT and be born-again.

Jesus said that unless a man denies himself, takes up his cross and follows Him he cannot be a disciple. Paul said "it is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me.

The False gospel being preached by virtually all the organisations I listed, omits repentance and talks very little about sin. People like Rick Warren teach that God has a plan for EVERY life. All people need to do is ask him to fulfil that plan. No talk about sin, no tyalk about repentance.

You have Steve Chalk, who states that Jesus was not punished for our sins by the Father because that would be global child abuse. Many others are teaching similar heresies.

It may be relevant but it is heretical.

John Chingford said...

You say the Christian faith is dying out. It is dying out because the truth is not preached enough. The answer is not to CHANGE it but to be more determined to uphold the Truth. Jude (in the Bible) said "contend earnestly for the faith ONCE delivered down to us". We MUST NOT change it or that becomes heretical and "leaven" which destroys the whole lump.

Besides, Jesus saiod HE would build His church. We are simply servants or His mouthpiece. It is NOT up to us to build the church because HE will do it. We cannot convict and convert people from their sin. Jesus said it is the Holy Spirit who will convict and convince of sin. Our job is to preach the UNCHANGING message and trust God to do the rest.

besides, the NT states in a number of places that there would be a falling away in the LAST DAYS,. so we CANNOT change that by being disobedient to the Lord by preaching a false "relevant" message.

John Chingford said...

Hi Barb again,

you said " I dont understand what most of the words your using mean". What words are you referring to that you don't understand? I would be happy to explain them.

Barb said...

I haven't said anything about changing the message, the message will forever remain the same. Its the methods used to spread the message that need to made more recent.

Going to church, singing hymns and listening to old speakers using 'thee' 'ye' 'thou' is tedious and does not appeal to my generation. We are the next generation and methods of spreading the message need to be modernised for the christian religion to go on and thrive.

I respect what your saying although I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

John Chingford said...

Thanks Barb, for your contribution. I appreciate your thoughts


Guys, this is the new generation I have been talking about.

They say that the message is not changing but the fact of the matter it is! To win people to Jesus we need to entertain them, appealing to their sinful nature. How can a person be truly born again if he hears a message which appeals to the sinful nature?

I agree that the methods coul;d change. For example using blogs, emails etc. I also agree that using modern English is good, to convey the message in a way that people ca\n understand.

The problem is that New Age opportunists like Eugene Peterson (The Message) have used this excuse to corrupt the true meaning within the Bible.

We have individuals who pretend to be speaking the Bible in todays language but they are distorting the original text and using this opportunity to spread heresy.

As I keep stating, check out the trusted versions of the Bible rather than trusting the word of man.

John Chingford said...

The NIV does not use thees and thous, neither does the New King James Version. These are much more reliable than modern translations like CEV or paraphrases like the Message, Living Bible, NLT

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Barb

I am so glad that you have replied and stated your concerns.

The Postmodern church does not preach THE Gospel in case people are offended by it. Postmodernism began in the 18thc when Philosophers began to put man’s wisdom above God’s wisdom. (Immanuel Kant).

1Cor.15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, THE GOSPEL which I preached to you, which also YOU RECEIVED, in which also you stand,
2. by which also YOU ARE SAVED, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was BURIED, and that He was RAISED ON THE THIRD DAY according to the Scriptures, (New American Standard Bible).

This is THE Gospel that is seen as an offence. They are ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and consider it best be kept ‘under wraps’, away from public gatherings until the confidence of the unsaved can be won over (if ever).

This is done by becoming like the unsaved so they can ‘identify’ with them. Interesting idea, but this is not the instruction of Christ; this is the false wisdom of man. Born again Christians are expected to be different from the world, not blend into it. We are to be ambassadors for Christ.

…Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION". 2Cor6:2. Death can come unexpectedly, and then it’s too late to be born again of the Spirit of God. Being like the world is hostility with God and likened to ‘spiritual adultery’. James4:4

Faith comes by hearing God’s Word; if it isn’t declared then faith cannot come.
It is falsely claimed that the unsaved are un-knowingly seeking for God. That again is man’s wisdom. Paul clearly states that NO ONE seeks after God. Romans3:10-18.

What the world is really seeking is the comfort of a nice home, a well paid job free from debt. They seek after good health, a happy family, a nice car and clothes, good food and drink and they seek peace. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with these desires; but It is the responsibility of the Church to tell the unsaved what they REALLY need, which is peace with God through Salvation in Christ, not what they think they need. T.V. adverts are very adept at dangling the carrot of ‘I want’. What does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world but lose his soul Mark8:34-38.

Expected Imminently said...

Continued:

John 14:15 (Jesus said) "IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Matt4:4 (Jesus) said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"
The world is dying for The Gospel the ‘bread of heaven’; and the Church is starving of spiritual nutrition by interpreting God’s Word by their personal opinion. Believing that they arrive at the truth when a group agree together what a Scripture means to them. This is called ‘eisegesis’ it means people are reading INTO God’s word what they think or want it to mean.

Every believer should be asking themselves the question “What is God telling me” which is called ‘exegesis’ meaning to take OUT from God’s word; while asking the Holy Spirit to guide them into all the Truth.

Expected Imminently said...

Continued:

Postmodernism says we can never KNOW the TRUTH. That is a lie.
John8:31b,32 (Jesus said) "IF you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, and the truth will make you free."
God does not lie. Numbers23:19.

It is unloving and downright cruel not to warn of any danger, none more so than rescuing those caught in a web of lies and deceit. Indeed we are instructed to do exactly that.

Ezek3:17 "Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel ; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, WARN them from Me.

Jesus ‘named names’ as did the Apostles ‘name names’ to expose error and deception in the Church. I have already given Scripture verses as evidence to another blogger. If it cannot be found, I will willingly repeat it.

Knowing people personally is not necessary to judge if their public teaching complies with Scripture or not. I do not have to know any drug addicts, or become one, to know what they are doing is wrong.

If you disagree with anything at all, please show us why from God’s Word and we will willingly deal with it. Our personal opinions and feelings are irrelevant. An opinion is only the view somebody takes about an issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment and not on facts.

God bless you Barb.
Your sister in Christ
Sue

Katy said...

Can I ask another question? So this is something I have never understood, and which suggests God is more interested in the heart then the theology. So whenJesus is born the Zoasterans (The Magi) go and visit him. They believe that the stars can tell the future, and following this, encountered Jesus. They would not ave understood all of the significance of Jesus, they still believed the stars told the future. And yet the grace of God allowed them to take their partial truth, and be part of his unfolding story of salvation. How does fit in with your theology?

Thanks

Katy

John Chingford said...

Hi Katy

Always remember Jeremiah 17:9

"The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?"

Therefore, how can you trust the heart? The Bible is our standard for trusting in because our hearts can deceive us!

First it is wrong to use an isolated case like the Magi to make assumptions about God and theology.

You cannot change the Truth of the Bible based on an isolated story or isolated verses. You must ALWAYS take the context of scripture as a whole and put to one side (not ignore) parts which do not make sense now. The answer may make sense later as you compare scripture with scripture.

Regarding the Magi (astrologers or astronomers) the Bible makes it clear that God FORBIDS such practices. It is of the occult and is ALWAYS wrong throughout scripture. That is the standard we MUST take.

So why were the Magi part of the nativity story? Simply because something amazing and unusual (supernatural) was happening in the heavenlies as a sign. They were astounded because it probably did not fit in with their normal reading of the stars. These supernatural manifestations were not occultic manifestations but God in action.

God always seems to do something miraculous (as a sign) in the heavenlies whenever He wants to speak to His people. When Jesus died there was an unusual darkness over the earth, for example.

Just because the Magi visited Jesus does not mean that God was endorsing their practice. It could be simply that God had done something so amazing that even the most godless of people were drawn to Him.

They visited because they saw something so extraordinary that they wanted to check it out. This tells us that God had given a sign to all people for the purpose of drawing all men to Him.

The fact they visited does not change the fact that God hates occultic practices. God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

All major religions today are expecting the imminent emergence of their messiah. Islam is expecting the Mahdi, Jews the Messiah and New Age are expecting a spirit Christ to be formed in all of us ie the age of Aquarius is the New Messianic age of the actualisation of us becoming gods on this earth.

In the same way that New Age and other false religions are expectant of a messianic age (but they are false and to be rejected because Jesus is the only way to God) so maybe the Magi were (at that time) expectant of something similar, so were keen to investigate this phenomena.

They were unsaved pagans (probably from Babylon following Babylonic pagan practices) who were simply following their religion. In no place does it say that God sent them. Nor does it say anywhere (as far as I can see) that God endorsed their coming.

Please correct me if I have missed any scriptures that teach otherwise.

The angels appeared to the shepherds but no angels for the Magi except possibly demonic manifestations.

Maybe satan wanted to use the Magi to alert Herod so that Jesus would be killed. But God intervened and prevented them from reporting back to Herod, by a dream.

The Bible is the guide God gave us to test ALL things. Jesus and the apostles frequently quoted from the Bible to test new phenomena. So should we!

John Chingford said...

I just need to clarify something I wrote as it gives a wrong impression. This is what I wrote:

"Regarding the Magi (astrologers or astronomers) the Bible makes it clear that God FORBIDS such practices."

God forbids astrology as an occultic practice. Obviously, astronomy (as far as I can tell) is not forbidden. What I should have said was:

"Regarding the Magi (who were astrologers and may have also been astronomers) the Bible makes it clear that God FORBIDS astrology"

RomaLynn said...

I believe that when Daniel was put in charge by the Babylonian King and then the Persian King also, he taught these astronomers, which I believe these were that came to see the birth of the messiah. Daniel knew God would give signs, I am sure, and he would have taught Jews there and others who would listen that the savior was coming.

RomaLynn said...

Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
Dan 1:18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.
Dan 1:19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
Dan 1:20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
Dan 1:21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.


Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
Dan 2:48 Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.
Dan 2:49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.


They are referred to as wise men again in the new testament.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


My thoughts here on this one, not astrology but astronomy.

Rachel said...

Dear John,

I don't understand your use of ecumenical (do you mean it as in Christian unity?) or of Catholic (are you referring to the Roman Catholic Church or Catholic again meaning one/unified?).

I also don't understand your need to name and shame. What about Loving God with all your heart, mind soul and strength and LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF?

Barb makes a good point that many of these churches, leaders and organises have enriched people's lives and brought many to faith - even Jesus said this is no bad thing.

Finally I'm intrigued by your viewpoint on the rapture. It is not a biblical concept and promotes the idea that Christians will be transported to Heaven, as aposed to the very Biblical view of bringing Heaven to Earth - see the Lord' Prayer.

I would love to hear your response.

Rachel

John Chingford said...

Hi Rachel, Welcome and thanks for asking your questions.

The original users of the term Ecumenical were the Roman Catholic Church and was set up by Vatican II with the purpose of reunifying the whole church back to Rome.

Please read my article "Why The Catholic Church is Not a Christian Denomination"
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-catholic-church-is-not-christian.html

which explains why the Catholic Church is NOT a Christian Church and is the Babylonic counterfeit and

"Why Dominion and Kingdom Now Theology Leads The Church Down The Same Road To Apostasy As Pursued By Rome"
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-dominion-and-kingdom-now-theology.html

Both articles inform about the mandate of Vatican II produced around 1963.

So the term ecumenical is referring to unification or working (in unity) with the Catholic church.

Regarding naming and shaming. This is nothing to do with a wishy washy type of love. The Apostles (within their letters) often named names as people to watch out for. Paul named someone specific to watch out for who was causing harm to the church. The survival of the true church is something to be actively fought for (in preaching).

Love for Jesus must come before love for our fellow man. We learn true love of our fellow man from our love for God as He works out that love in us. But, He will not allow heresy to destroy what He built.

Paul mentioned someone's name whom he handed over to satan to learn not to blaspheme. Anybody who seeks to destroy God's work through heresy or leaven must be confronted or exposed or at least warn others about them. Jesus told the disciples to beware of the false teachings of the pharisees. So we must also warn.

Regarding your comments about what Barb said. If you read all our replies you will see that we have already answered that question as to whether it is a good thing or not, ie what sort of Christian has been formed?

John Chingford said...

Part 2 Cont.
If you give a false gospel (which does not include repentance and confession of sin) it mostly produces believers who are not actually saved because they received Jesus for the wrong reasons and not for Godly reasons, ie they put SELF first instead of putting God first in their life.

If you tell a person that "God has a wonderful plan for your life, all you need to do is pray to God to work it out in you and then you will experience this plan" is a false gospel because you are feeding the soulish desires of people instead of confronting them with the fact that they are wretched sinners who need God's mercy and forgiveness through Jesus. These preachers belittle sin or rather state that we all already have the divine nature (not sinful nature) within us which has to be realised. They belittle the whole topic of sinful nature which needs saving by repentance.

I won't get into the rapture debate here as I have already fully explained how the bible clearly teaches it.

Regarding the Lord's prayer. He said "your kingdom come, your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" The early church used a term "maranatha" which means "come quickly" meaning a prayer for Jesus Return to set up the kingdom. They understood what Jesus meant. SO SHOULD WE! We are to pray that Jesus should return to set up His kingdom.

Jesus reigns in Heaven. In a sense He reigns on Earth within His church (which is still on the Earth) but in the meanwhile uses us to prepare the ground to hasten the Lord's return. He was referring to His Will being done (through the Church) in the same way as His Will is always done in Heaven. We are to pray for and seek the lost bringing them into God's Kingdom on Earth ie the church.

Jesus was NOT talking about the church reigning on Earth, through governments and earthly wealth etc. Many times the scriptures refer to the Millennial reign of Christ brought in by HIS RETURN (NOT BEFORE) which will be the finalisation of God's kingdom on Earth.

Yes, we are to pray that God intervenes on the Earth and have ultimate authority (which He always has) but it is He who reigns on the Earth - not the church, because its citizenship is in Heaven. "our citizenship is in heaven, not on the Earth". We are to "seek those things which are above, not those things on Earth". Our duty (as a church) is to save souls from a hellbound destination. It is not to set up dynasties.

John Chingford said...

Hi Roma

Thanks.

Very interesting contribution. I think you may be right. Does anybody know for sure if the wise men were actually "magi" (we have been told that they were magi, which I guess is an abbreviation of the word "magic") and whether they were astronomers or astrologers?

Certainly they may have been influenced by the legacy handed down by Daniel, Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego. Most important we must understand that God WAS NOT endorsing the occultic magical practices within the nativity story. These men were drawn OUT OF this in amazement at what they were seeing, ie something far more dramatic than their magical experiences (like in Daniel "10 times greater") to check it out. Through the course of all this we find them worshipping Jesus.

I am sure that they would never be the same again and unable to continue with the occultic practices after seeing Jesus.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello John
Totally agree with you on the difficult subject of ecumenism. Folk have had this inveigled upon them in a sinister manner. Like the frog that is put into a pot of cold water while heat is applied slowly, frog acclimatises to the increasing temperature, remains in the pot until it is boiled to death.

I know my sketch of the Magi was very poor, but I think it would have been something to refer to until I can sort it neatly. I know you removed it to save me embarrassment over my poor writing ability, but I am fine with it being included, at least temporarily until I replace it.

Yes it is the MAGI. It is the name given by the Chaldeans who were Babylonian, Mede’s Persian’s and others to describe groups of very powerful men. They are described as being teachers, priests, physicians, ASTROLOGERS, astronomers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers… They were part of an ancient occult religion.

magos

1) a magus
a) the name given by the Babylonians (Chaldeans), Medes, Persians, and others, to the wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers etc.
b) the oriental wise men (astrologers) who, having discovered by the rising of a remarkable star that the Messiah had just been born, came to Jerusalem to worship him
c) a false prophet and sorcerer

The word ‘magic’ has been derived from this word. After Daniel successfully helped King Nebuchadnezzar, he was made the chief over the Magi and obviously made changes away from the occult side in favour of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were the early scholars and scientists.

The Magi who attended Jesus were those who had become believers in Daniels God, and were using Daniels books, which would include others like Jeremiah and Isaiah.
We read the King became a believer, as did some of his subjects along with a number of Magi – not all! Occult Magi continued under their early religion and the new religion of Zoro-.

God bless all.
Sue

Expected Imminently said...

Just to add I have noted the query on the Rapture; I would like to answer this as soon as I can showing Scriptural evidence for the removal of the Church into heaven. Changed from mortal into imortal.

She returns with Jesus at the 2nd Coming after the 7 year Tribulation (Daniels 70th Wk). After the judgments begins the earthly reign of Messiah for 1000 years ruling with His Bride, The Church from physical ISRAEL with the physical survivors of Jews to reinhabit their promised land in full. Plus surviving gentiles who believed in Jesus during THE Tribulation and repopulate the gentile nations under Israel.

Earth repopulated for 1000 yrs. Satan released from pit. Raises an army against Christ and all are totally destroyed.

Then the heavens and earth are rolled up like a scroll and burnt. John sees a new heaven and earth and so begins ETERNITY.

Phew! I am so late, must rush.
Sue

John Chingford said...

I have received a criticism (unpublished)from a New Frontier follower (I have received similar other responses from New frontier leaders) which I need to respond to. I have not published it because most of it is irrelevant and unhelpful to the subject.

However, I will start by showing excerpts that are reasonable questions and then answer them. This is the excerpt:

"I believe that the majority of names on that list are unjustly placed there.

It would be as unjust for me to claim that you are a Catholic because you’ve eaten a pizza once in your life and that pizzas are Italian and (so I hear) there’s a lot of Catholics in Italy. I think you’d agree that allegations like that would be absolutely absurd and you would be outraged to hear someone making connections in that way.

Do you honestly believe that if someone gets one thing wrong theologically that they are automatically a false teacher?"

This is my reply:

"Let me first explain what I mean by “association”:

If a church leader is simply having fellowship with another teacher (from one of those ecumenical or new age infected organisations) without endorsing or teaching their doctrines, that association is NOT what I am talking about and I guess is okay.

However, if that person starts leading one of these groups or start joining in with that ecumenical group (in a unification process) and lead their church down that path of joining those groups or teaching the ecumenical doctrine, then this is a bad association.

It is this type of association that I am warning against. So, if teachers, leaders and prophets are encouraging believers (by their association with those groups and what they teach in support of them) to join these ecumenical or new age groups, then their association is cause of concern.

I also have another use of the word association, to mean signing an allegiance to the ecumenical movement, for example becoming members of ecumenical groups like Westminster Declaration, Manhattan Declaration, Promise Keepers (to name a few).

Everyone on my list has absolutely associated (*in a bad sense) with an ecumenical or new age infected organisation (or both).

John Chingford said...

Part 2 Cont.

Here is why New Frontiers is ecumenical and new ageish.

Some time ago I read Terry Virgo’s blog. He did not and will not condemn false revivals like Todd Bentley’s so called Lakeland Revivals. Of course he wouldn’t because New Frontiers are on the frontline of these “experiential” revivals like Toronto and they support the New Apostolic Reformation led by C Peter Wagner, Chuck Pierce and Rick Joyner who have ecumenical ties and weird new age style worship they endorse.

This is a video of Chuck Pierce of New Apostolic Reformation, who works alongside C Peter Wagner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfkkWx4DLuk&feature=player_embedded

This video illustrates how weird the NAR are becoming. It sounds so demonic.

Here is an excerpt (written before the Lakeland revival) to prove the point from:
http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html

“Branching out from their former isolation and tight doctrines, they have become ecumenistic, almost liberal, and are networking with every church group imaginable. The restoration fellowships, together with Elim Pentecostal fellowships, were in the forefront of the Toronto, Promise Keepers and Pensacola controversies, just as they had promoted the Kansas City Prophets earlier on.

Restoration teachings are responsible for infecting almost every branch of British church life, and their goal of full visible unity seems to draw nearer every year, as successive churches succumb to their influence.”

This link:
http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html

also gives the full history behind the New Frontiers movement.

As I (myself) got drawn into them during the 1980′s and 1990′s I DO know that these things are TRUE.
Let me start you a question:

Does New Frontiers support any of the following:
Latter Rain,Manifest Sons Of God,
Word of Faith, Shepherding Movement,Spring Harvest, New Breed, Joel’s Army, New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), Third Wave Movement, Vineyard, Toronto Blessing, Pensacola and Lakeland Revivals, Alpha, TBN, Seeker Friendly, Purpose Driven, Emerging Church, HillSong, Promise-Keepers, Renovaré,Elijah List (list of prophetic Ministries), Manhattan Declaration, Westminster 2010 Declaration, THE MESSAGE, Lausanne Movement, International Apostolic Council (IAC), International Coalition of Apostles (ICA)?

John Chingford said...

Part 3 Cont.

All of these are ecumenical (ie links with Rome) and some of them have incorporated new age practices. If anyone or any group are joined to any of these, they are also part of the ecumenical train because these have all been infected by Rome and association means endorsing.

Did you know that the history behind the restoration movements came out of the Latter rain movement and was heavily inluenced by the shepherding movement and the Lauderdale 5.

In the 1960′s we had Vatican II ecumenical resolution. From this time onwards, the Vatican have been seeking ways to get protestants back into their fold and have used any means.

1971 The first international charismatic conference held in Guildford in 1971 was described by some as the “Coming of Age of The Renewal” yet it was attended by 40 Lutherans and 30 Roman Catholics and one of the main speakers was Kevin Ranaghan. “Mr Pentecost” David Du Plessis was also there.
In 1972, Cardinal Suenens became intimately involved in the Renewal and introduced it to the Catholic Charismatic movement.

In 1974 Martin and Clark teamed up with the ‘Fort Lauderdale Five’ (Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Derek Prince, Don Basham & Ern Baxter – former secretary to William Branham), who were the founders of the Shepherding Movement, which later became known as the Charismatic Movement (yes, friends, the Shepherding came first!).

They were joined by John Poole, another latter Rain adherent. Together these men established a group for ecumenical renewal.
A council was elected whose existence was kept secret as it was not acceptable at the time for Protestants to ‘labour in the Gospel’ with Catholics.
For the fledgling Shepherding Movement the money and power of the Vatican were attractive: for Martin and Clark it was a golden opportunity to begin implementing the ecumenical and Charismatic aspirations of Vatican II.

John Chingford said...

Part 4 Cont.

I heard from Terry Virgo’s own lips on video, how he supports Toronto and Lakeland and does not condemn the false practices and teachings of the CATHOLIC sent Todd Bentley.
If you look at the history (which I will reveal in due course) of Latter Rain you will see it has occultic origins.

It was said that New Frontiers is now separate from Restoration churches. However, it is easier to get out of the restoration movement than it is to get the restoration movement out of New Frontiers.

Terry Virgo is still heavily influenced by his background and shows this by leading New Frontiers down the same path as the Latter Rain, Joels Army, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, New Apostolic Reformation, Promise Keepers are following. No wonder NF follow the false revivals.

If I am wrong, please prove it to me. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

But the evidence is overwhelming that New Frontiers leadership are influencing the churches to become ecumenical and encouraging everyone to follow the new paradigm of experiences in place of and above what the Bible teaches.

For example C Peter Wagner teaches that new revelation is just as important as revealed Biblical Truth and that “the end justifies the means”. Where does the Bible say that? In fact the Bible teaches the opposite. So deception and using occultic practices is okay if it produces decisions for Christ? NO WAY!

C Peter Wagner has got his fingers in countless pies and seems to be one of the greatest influences of the evangelical and charismatic churches becoming ecumenical in our day.

Quite honestly, the New Frontiers (born out of the restoration movement) has a very questionable foundation and DEFINITELY associates with “so called” charismatic catholics. They are still Catholics and choose to be attached to Rome (even if they are charismatic) and still part of the Vatican II resolution to bring about the unifying of evangelical churches to Rome.

If anyone or any group associates with Rome (in the way I mentioned above) they are ecumenical.

John Chingford said...

Part 5
Just noticed that .html is missing from 2 of those website links. Please add .html to the end of these addresses:

ie please copy and paste the link (below) onto your URL address and then type onto the end .html and then click to get into the website page.

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3

Pete said...

Hi John

Your list is very long and raises a lot of issues, the biggest one has got to be How could the Church slide so badly? The second being, (as anonymous pointed out) where is the true church?

Well, we know that the true church exists but it appears to have non of the organisational structure of the apostate church. I don't even know many of my TRUE brethren!

By the way, I have just read some of your work on the Nephilim and this thought occurred to me. Just as much of the O/T provides an analogous precedent to modern spiritual life, many of the names on your list are modern day "Giants", as are world leaders. They have power and influence, stature, popularity, wealth, you name it.

Comparably, many who stand for Biblical truth, are, in earthly terms, small.
We do have the Word of God as our weapon, The double edged sword, which is the most dynamic and deadly when used in Faith and under the guidance of The Holy Spirit.

Here is to the true heroes of faith whoever and wherever they may be. God bless you.

Pete

John Chingford said...

Hi Pete

Welcome to the blog.

Thanks so much for your contribution.

I will try to answer your questions

1) You said: Your list is very long and raises a lot of issues, the biggest one has got to be How could the Church slide so badly?

My Reply: I have been asking the same questions myself. When I first heard Jacob Prasch speak about the apostasy in the church, it made me angry as I found it hard to believe it. I didn't want to believe it, but yet, I knew deep down that Jacob was pinpointing some truth and his examples were true.

I had been questioning some things beforehand (for a few years) but never envisaged it was as bad as this. I am a person who cannot accept or reject anything without checking it out myself. When I became a Christian I was encouraged to be a Berean, so am used to checking the scriptures for myself.

So how has it got so bad, so quickly? Well, I have to say I don't know. However, we are in the Very Last Days. In these last days things are happening very quickly. Many many prophecies are being fulfilled speedily. I believe the time piece (in God's hand) changed its speed as soon as Israel became a nation again in 1948 (or maybe since the holoquast).

One such prophecy was the "falling away" mentioned in 1 Tim 4:1

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons"

This is talking about "THE faith - not A faith. It would be a full scale falling away of the established church (which obviously contains many NOT born-again).

The Bible NEVER exaggerates but often understates. For example "they saw the Lord and were glad". They had just met the risen Lord. I think they were a bit more than "glad".

In same way, the falling away (also mentioned in Thessalonians) was probably not something small but the mark of something dramatic. It is this, I think we are seeing, today.

2) You said: (as anonymous pointed out) where is the true church?

My reply: I don't know. One of the purposes of this blog is to mobilise the true church to arise and find one another.

There are some isolated sound churches still in existence but many are not within easy reach of our own locations. We have two options. One is to stand up (within our apostate church)and speak out. Paul often spoke out within synagogues. Our churches are like those synagogues - full of false teaching. We can use our church as a mission field. Maybe some will see the truth and join you in setting up your own "home" church?

or you leave it and witness to neighbours etc inviting them into your homes for bible study etc. Maybe a home church can start like that?

3) You said: Well, we know that the true church exists but it appears to have none of the organisational structure of the apostate church

my reply: Sorry Pete, but I am not sure what you mean here. I may have answered that already?

Regarding the rest of your comments (if I have understood them correctly) I agree with everything you said.

God bless. Please keep contributing.

John Chingford said...

Hi Pete

Just to show I also have a sense of humour, I want to reply to one of your comments in a tongue in cheek way.

You said: They have power and influence, stature, popularity, wealth, you name it.

My reply: don't you mean "name it and claim it"?

Expected Imminently said...

John sais "My reply: don't you mean "name it and claim it"?

I prefer 'blab it and grab it'!

Sue :D

John Chingford said...

Hi EI

Yes that's good too. Here's another "say it and pay it"

Barb said...

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?


Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.



James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?


Just say, just for the sake of it, God was extremely happy with the leaders at alpha, hillsong, spring harvest and all these other 'false' leaders. What would He think of you?

John Chingford said...

Hi Barb

Please try to keep your comments respectful and subjective. Actually aren't you actually ALSO judging me?

Remember the words of Jesus in John 8:45-47

"But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin?
And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Now before you start stoning me for blasphemy, I AM NOT saying that this applies to me as I CAN be convicted of sin, although I am justified as clean through the blood of Jesus.

The reason I quoted those verses is because it shows that we CAN judge people by WHAT THEY SAY. The verses you quoted is NOT referring to words spoken but to acts or practices.

This blog and this article IS NOT condemning these people for their actions but their words. I cannot know what is going on in their hearts and am not allowed to judge the intents of their hearts - only God knows what is inside a person. The words I speak because they are from the Bible (like Jesus) either condemn or excuse them. It is not ME judging them but the very WORD OF GOD which judges them.

Let me ask you. Am I telling the truth as to how to recognise a false leader and am I telling the truth that the Catholic religion is not Christian?

If I am telling the truth, then anyone who ecumenically marries himself to the Catholic organisation, new age or any other false religion MUST be a false leader or false brother. It is the WORD OF GOD which states these things - NOT ME!

Barb said...

I'm not judging you I'm trying to make you see the wider picture. I want you to see that this article isn't very holy. Some of these organisations may be false, however the reasons you base your claims arent very concrete. I also agree that the Catholic religion is not Christian, however I wouldnt hold it against someone for being Catholic. I dont know very much about the catholic religion, but dont they believe in the same Jesus as us?
Anyway, I totally respect your opinions and im very sorry if i come across as disrespectful. However the translation of the bible my church (and i) use is the message, i've been to spring harvest many times and my church has held the alpha course, does this mean (in your opinion)that I and the Christians around me are all fakes?

John Chingford said...

Hi Barb

I have answered these questions within this article and within the comments and throughout my blog.

PLEASE, I ask you to read EVERYTHING to get it all in context before you make statements so that you can understand that the things I write are NOT based on my opinion but on the WORD OF GOD. I will also (at the bottom of this comment) give you some of my article url's and other url's, so that you can see why these organisations ARE ecumenical.

You said: I want you to see that this article isn't very holy.

My reply: with respect that is your opinion. Do you base that opinion from what you think or on the Bible?

You said: Some of these organisations may be false, however the reasons you base your claims arent very concrete.

My reply: why are my reasons not concrete?

Regarding the rest of your last comment, here are the url links, I mentioned, which will show why the Catholic Church is false and why SH, Alpha and "the message" are false

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-catholic-church-is-not-christian.html

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/02/showing-why-bible-version-message-is.html

This following link is evidence of Alpha's and Gumbal's marriage with the Catholic church (you will need to "down arrow" from the picture until you come to the relevant part shown under the heading "Nicky Gumbel and the Gospel"

http://www.firstplumbline.net/html/aboutdrnickygumbal.html .

(Note that the last part of that address has been truncated, ie the l.html is missing. This is a frequent problem I have within blogger comments section. Please copy/paste up to "gumba" and then add the l.html to the end so that you can get into the correct website page).

The next link shows the false message of alpha. Please check the notes at the very bottom of that article which are further evidence of his catholic ties

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-we-should-avoid-nicky-gumbel-of.html

Regarding Spring Harvest. I haven't yet put an article together regarding SH, but will do in due course. But I have seen enough to know that IT IS ecumenical and strongly supports the Catholic church. It has as 3 of its main speakers: Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren and Steve Chalke.

Tony Campolo is strongly promoting Catholic tradition, Brian McLaren has introduced the Emerging Church which is a fgalse teaching based on Catholic teachings of the "dark" ages of "experiences" rather than based on the bible (See my articles on the emerging church which prove this). Then Steve Chalke is teaching that Jesus was not punished by Our Father for our sins (as that would be "cosmic child abuse") he is one of many who has introduced new age ideas into the church and into SH.

SH are too open to "anything" and have moved away from the solid teachings of scripture, which should be our plumbline for testing new doctrine.

Andrew Bowman said...

Let me make a comment here about one person you have listed, Eric Delve. Many years ago when he was an itinerant evangelist he came to my church and led a very successful mission which resulted in a number of people becoming christians. He did the same thing all over the country for many years. He is of the most powerful preachers of the gospel that I have ever heard. He now leads a strong evangelical church in Kent. He is not an apostate, false teacher, false prophet, or false leader, and speaking at Spring Harvest does not make him one. There's probably plenty more names on your list I could take issue with, but he is someone I have encountered in person.

John Chingford said...

Hi Andrew

Please would you read my introduction of this article again. I stated

"However, it is always possible that some individuals may be ignorant about the groups they speak at, associate with or endorse. Some of these leaders may have regretted it later or even withdrawn their names (if possible). I would be more concerned if these people still deliberately JOIN these groups (or remain with them) even though the groups have been exposed as being apostate and ecumenical. Although, we should be careful not to be too harsh on those who are only linked to one group, as they may have done this in ignorance. However, those who are attached to, or involved in, more than one group should cause us extra concern."

I also heard Eric Delve many times in the late 1970's early 1980's and (at the time) was very impressed with his humerous way of preaching the gospel. I took an unsaved person to one of his meetings at "Mission to London" in the 1980's. His response was "he is like Jim Davidson". Can't disagree with that.

It is difficult for me to comment on where he stands today after 30 years, but anyone who still supports Spring Harvest in its new age emerging church direction (which it is taking) concerns me.

I have not stated that any of these are definitely false teachers but PROBABLE false teachers because of what they support. Only the Lord knows their hearts.

I can only judge by what they say (whether it be true or false according to the Bible) not what is in their hearts.

Anonymous said...

It can all be summed up by what has come out of the new religion called *Pentecostalism*, which is the new Roman Catholism, a relgion unto itself spreading around the entire world its heresies.

Most of the men behind it are actually hard core nihlistic atheists who learned how easy it is to run the pentecostal healing/miracle scam (it is a total scam) on desperate and simple minded superstious religious people to take them for their money, while getting lots of sexual favors and adoration from their cult like followers. This is little different than what the popes enjoyed for hundreds of years up to a few centuries ago.

Pentecostalism is just an updated version of how Roman Catholism was in its first few centuries beggining around 1000 ad, a global trendy heretical movement run by con men who understand how to manipulate human nature shamelessly.

John Chingford said...

Hi Anonymous

Although you are probably correct regarding much of Pentecostalism, it is incorrect to say that ALL Pentecostalism is like this.

I attended a GOOD pentecostal church from 1978 to 1984. That church started to introduce (in a small way) Word Faith stuff from about 1982 and New Age stuff from about 1984, but during 1978 to 1982 it was totally biblical and the sense of God's presence was very strong. We experienced amazing conversions and wonderful testimonies of the way God was changing lives. My life was changed strongly too during this time, being empowered to speak the Word to unbelievers BOLDLY during this time.

Most in my church were very serious with God and there were no scams whatsoever. But, with infiltration during the mid 1980's sadly I witness a decimation of our church and its Elim organisation as Toronto, Alpha, Latter rain etc etc came into this organisation.

Yes, Pentecostalism (as it stands within AOG and Elim etc)is NOW apostate, but it wasn't always the case in every independant local church.

I know there are now questions regarding the origins of the movement through Azusa Street and the soundness of that revival, but was everything related to Azusa street unbiblical and demonic or did some sound Holy Spirit regeneration take place too? In my investigation At the moment, I am not convinced that everybody involved with it got it wrong.

There were also questionable things or practices (legalistic) that happened during the Wesley revivals, but we do not question that revival as not of God, do we?

Jesus spoke about His Heavenly Father, in this way. Will a good father give bad things to their children eg if a child asks for an egg will he give him a snake? Of course not! Neither will our Heavenly Father give us something bad. So, if we ask for the Holy Spirit will our Father give us a demonic spirit?

It is a question of where we are in our relationship with God. If we are truly born-again God has promised to protect us from any "snakes" (demonic spirits) Rom 8:37-39. Nothing will harm us.

"How much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask". If we are born again, but very naive and not very discerning and inadvertantly end up in Toronto, Pensacola or Lakeland , seeking God with all our hearts, will we not be protected from false spirits by our Father?

As God is so omni present, omnipotent and omniscient He WILL intervene by protecting us and even bless us with His Spirit because we are seeking Him with all our heart. However, I believe that (for the truly born again believer)the Holy Spirit would also pull at our souls
showing us that these revivals are not of God and to depart from them. Certainly any blessing that God gives (Sovereignly) should not be attributed to the revival.

Jesus told us that the true worshippers would worship the Father in spirit and in truth. He said that we do not need to go to Jerusalem or this or that mountain because His presence will be IN US, so we should never be revival chasers but God seekers from where we are.

John Chingford said...

I know of some isolated independant Pentecostal churches that are sincerely seeking God and doing their utmost to not be infected by all the apostate stuff infecting much of evangelical Christianity and seeking to follow the Bible as its guide.

Let's face it, it is not just Pentecostalism that has been infected but most of evangelical, charismatic Christianity through the influence of Rome. It is charismania not Pentecostalism (at least not so much) that has messed up the church. There is a difference.

However, I am happy to be corrected if anybody has firm evidence that I am wrong.

God bless Anonymous

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir: A while back I believe I submitted a message critisizing your blog and suggesting you instead have a list of people you do recommend. I apologize and I was wrong. You have every right to identify who you believe are false teachers and leave it to others to decide for themselves. I think what is much more dangerous are people who wouldn't allow any criticism at all as I have recently found out from one 'true believer'. Anyways, I thought you would like to hear that I changed my mind.

John Chingford said...

Bless you Anonymous for the humility to make that statement.

Graham Peacock said...

Not many christains are prepared to name false teachers and prophets who operate and have infiltrated the christian church. Not many warn about the unbiblical doctrines and practices they have introduced and entice christians by giving their explanations that God is doing something new, hence people being deceived.
Having watched the God Channel, DayStar TV and Inspiration TV they are awashed with the Word of Faith teachings and its leaders. Non christians as well as christians are sick to death of being bombarded with similar messages about sowing your financial seed to obtain God's blessing - the false prosperity doctrine.
They fleece the flock, build super church structures, extend their empires using christianity as a business venture, and hob knob and exhalt one another telling their followers thet are "anoited" by God, hence their church memberships saying "do not touch thy anointed."
They tend to talk about persecution outside America and the UK and because they claim that they are in the "victory" they are exempt of being persecuted themselves. With the accrued wealth they have by living in mansions, having their own jet aircraft and not to mention their own security guards, they can pay their way of not being publically examined and bribe the police and city authorites to keep themselves out of the limelight. But what has been kept secret and under wraps, are being exposed.
Just look at Derren Brown's programme shown on Channel 4 in the UK recently called Miracles for Sale." It was an eye opener on Kenneth Copeland and his estate protected by his own security guards and the local sherrif. The Lord Jesus Christ never employed security guards to keep the public away!
But I am glad to see and hear that Jacob Prasch (Moriel Ministries) naming these charlatans on Revelation TV and Tony Pearce (Light For the Last Days) doing so on his website and publications.
I came out of a Restorationist (formerly an AOG church) group of people who were engrossed in taking the city and local villages, and everything else, for Jesus and in the last 25 years have failed to do so. They no longer go out from their church building in preaching the Gospel message in the city centre with the excuse that this is obsolete and not for the 21st century. What utter twoddle! Other established churches have followed this pattern and not bothered about the Good News outside of church walls.
Then we have now an established New Frontiers church who teaching is taking everything for Jesus, and once done, invite Him back to reign. They don't belive in any rapture. Then we have other churches whose leaderships are preaching Replacement theology whereby the christian church has taken the place of Israel while other churches support the Palestiniancause of an independent state within the nation of Israel.
Yes, the christian church is in turmoil and soon it will be split apart by a spiritual earthquake as earthquakes are taking place all over the globe, to expose what is Almighty God's and the False Church emerging form within.
One question may I ask is this - is the Roman Catholic Church part of the christian church? For many evangelical christians leaders are saying that it is and declaring charismatic catholics who are exhourating Mary, are born again christians and should be accepted as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
If this is the case did you know that there are charismatic folk who are Mormans. Are they too born again of the Holy Spirit? It makes you wonder what is becoming acceptable now!

John Chingford said...

Thanks Graham for your excellent contribution piece. You are spot on.

Myfanwy said...

Hi John and fellow true believers.. I can only say that I feel very blessed at having found this site. I come from a background of Baptist, AOG and evangelical churches. For years I just listened to the preacher trustingly, even when hearing the Word that tells us to test what we hear! To be honest, I have been strong in my belief and faith, and I thank the Lord, that for the most part, I have got it right, but obviously by His grace and protection! It is a very long story, but recently I have been very troubled about false teachers etc after having got caught out with Kenneth Copeland and company. I realised how wrong that whole 'Ministry' is, and I also saw the Derren Brown program on TV. For some time now, I have been very troubled with teachings I have heard on Premier Radio, UK, and I have stopped listening, as many pastors on there are false teachers. At first I was confused about things I heard, and I began to question in my heart. I asked the Lord to show me the real truth about EVERYTHING. I also have family that are non-Christian, and it distressed me greatly when they said things like, you Christians don't even know what you believe and you all argue over what the Bible says, so how can the Bible be true! I believe the Lord has been leading me on a journey, I have been doing alot of research online and with my Bible. I totally agree with all you say and I have found many sites that agree with your lists of false teachers and organisations. One site even lists authors of books sold in Christian bookshops that we should be wary of. I have a few people that I would like to ask you about as I have not seen them on your list, but I feel very uneasy about them. Chuck Swindoll and Charles Stanley, as well as Watchman Nee, altho I am not too unhappy about the latter. I do not attend a church and have not done so for a long time due to illness, but also as I was so confused and distressed about the different denominations in the Charismatic and Evangelical churches. I am praying that somehow the Lord will lead me to other true believers. Thank you brother for your work and your courage in naming names and your teaching. Myfanwy

John Chingford said...

Hi Myfanwy

Thanks for your very useful contribution. Bless you!

If you use the search facility within my blog (on the home page)and do a search on "watchman Nee" you will see that I wrote articles re some of his dodgy teachings.

If you also do a search on Chuck Swindoll and Charles Stanley you will see that they also are included in my articles. By the way, Chuck Swindoll IS included in my list.

You are correct that I haven't yet included Charles Stanley, but I am unsure what ecumenical organisations he is actually attached to, so will not include names unless I am certain of what groups they belong to.

I advise anybody who wants to check my lists. Do not JUST look at the list (if you are checking out a name) but also use the search facility on my blog to see if any articles have been written regarding those persons.

I am considering adding "Campus Crusade" associates to my list of ecumenical organisations. When I do, Charles Stanley will be included

God bless

Anonymous said...

Talmidah
You said the NIV was a good translation. Well the NIV is a paraphrase too.

John Chingford said...

Hi Anonymous

I have since stated that only the 1984 and earlier versions of NIV are reliable versions. I wrote a later article explaining that there is now a 2010/2011 version which has possibly been paraphrased. I do believe that the earlier version was an accurate TRANSLATION from the original manuscripts.

Why do you think that NIV is a paraphrase? A paraphrase is an interpretation (not translation) based on the writers understanding of the text. For example Living Bible and The Message were written by individuals based on their interpretation of the Bible they were reading. Paraphrases are definitely NOT reliable because they are not from the original manuscripts but from an individuals own bias of interpretation. I suggest ALL paraphrases should be thrown out because they will lead readers into deception.

Jesus said "woe to you scribes and pharisees" Why? because they were teaching the people from the commentaries of the Torah and the commentaries of the commentaries.

They were misleading the people. Jesus called them "blind guides" because they were hiding the purity of the Word of God and replacing it with their viewpoints and the people were believing them.

This is exactly what paraphrases do.

Andrew Bowman said...

Originally written by Andrew in March 2011 as follows:

You said that Rick Warren graduated from Fuller. I do have concerns about Warren, but your statement is incomplete and misleading. He did a BA at California Baptist University, an MDiv at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a DMin at Fuller, in that order. Normally the term "graduated" would refer to someone's first degree.

John Chingford said...

Hi Andrew

You may be correct in what you are saying. I thought that anybody who completed their studies with success at a University/college etc was considered as a graduate of that school.

In any case, that does not nullify the point I was making. The fact is that Rick Warren DID study at Fullers and therefore may have come under its influence! Indeed, he may well have been an influence (himself) to that school.

God bless Andrew

RomaLynn said...

Rick Warren also attended stuides at the Crystal Cathedral, with Robert Schuller. Although he tried to deny it, when years ago he first got started it was common knowledge. I think now that someone has tried to hide that fact.

Myfanwy said...

Hi Roma and John,

Very interesting about Rick Warren!

On another topic that relates to these comments, can anyone explain to me what the Lausanne Movement is and what John Piper has to do with it?

Thanks.

John Chingford said...

Thanks Myfanwy

Here is the url address to Lausanne's own site, to a page which explains "about them".

http://www.lausanne.org/en/about

Specifically note:

"he story of Lausanne begins with the evangelist Dr Billy Graham. As he started preaching internationally, he developed a passion to ‘unite all evangelicals in the common task of the total evangelization of the world’.

In 1966 the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, in partnership with America’s Christianity Today magazine, sponsored the World Congress on Evangelism in Berlin. This gathering drew 1,200 delegates from over 100 countries, and inspired further conferences in Singapore (1968),

Minneapolis and Bogotá (1969), and Australia (1971). Shortly afterwards, Billy Graham perceived the need for a larger, more diverse congress to re-frame Christian mission in a world of social, political, economic, and religious upheaval. The Church, he believed, had to apply the gospel to the contemporary world, and to work to understand the ideas and values behind rapid changes in society. He shared his thinking with 100 Christian leaders, drawn from all continents, and they affirmed the need. It would be a timely gathering."

This organisation (set up by Billy Graham) fast became ecumenical overemphasising the physical (as opposed to the spiritual)global needs and seems to have been a fore-runner to Rick Warrens ecumenical PEACE programme.

The Lausanne Movement work with the Vatican II Council's ecumenical drive to reach "nominal" catholics.

This next url shows documentation proving how ecumenically linked LM is and how it works hand in hand with the Catholic Organisations

http://www.lausanne.org/en/documents/lops/55-lop-10.html#2

John Chingford said...

John Piper is involved because he is on the "council of reference" of the Lausanne Movement.

He has ecumenical leanings and has recently had strong associations with the ecumenical "New Apostolic Reformation" inviting Rick Warren (who is also on the LM council) to speak at his "Desiring God" conference 2010. He also has invited C Peter Wagner to speak at meetings.

He is part of the new fast growing New Calvinism movement (aka New Reformation Movement).

Incidentally, just discovered that John McArthur is also part of this New Calvinism movement

Myfanwy said...

Hello Roma and thank you for that information. I do need to write to you again, I have just been very busy.

I guess the old saying of 'there is no smoke without fire', probably represents alot of the deceit that goes on in Christianity. And sometimes you have to dig real deep to find the truth. But you will find it if you ask the Lord to help you find truth in all things.
So I do try to have a 'neutral'and fair mind before I investigate someone or their theology. It would be easy to jump to conclusions. Obviously, if they or their theology is blatantly misleading and completely unbiblical, that is something different altogether!
I think the most deceptive ideas, beliefs, deceits, are the most well camoflauged!!

God bless,

Myfanwy

Myfanwy said...

Hi again John, Well that is interesting!

As I was saying to Roma in my last post, if you dig deep enough you will find the truth! I TRULY wanted to believe that John Mac Arthur was theologically right, and also that he was not misleading anyone. I just had a feeling that something was not quite right though. I do not know much about John Piper, but thanks for that info.

John Chingford said...

Hi Myfanwy

I want to hold back on calling New Calvinism an apostate movement for now. My reasons are that Calvin introduced to us the scriptures which highlight our eternal security and why we can have full assurance in our salvation.

I DO disagree with a fair amount of Calvinism, though, but unsure that I can go as far as to call it heresy. I need to learn more about it first. It could be that NEW Calvinism (aka new reformation movement)is slightly different and carries an amount of poison in its teachings. I suspect this to be the case as seems apparent in my investigations so far.

The fact that those who participate in New Calvinism are linking themselves to NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) leaders, is quite telling.

John Chingford said...

Part 1
I had (many years ago) spent some time reading up on the main points of Calvinism, especially as presented from Romans 8.

The last 2 days I have been investigating, examining, re examining the whole topic of reformed Christianity. I previously thought I understood it (generally) but then realised there was much I did not understand.

I would like to inform that "reformed theology" IS actually based on the teachings that came out of the 16th Century reformation. I thought there was no relation. The fact is that there is!

Also, it seems there is a relation behind "NEW reformation theology" (which has links with older "reformation theology") and "new apostolic reformation" (NAR).

The bottom line is that they are primarily based on Calvin's theology. By understanding that reformed theology comes from out of Calvinism, we can then understand why they follow their present doctrines.

It seems that everything they do comes under the 5 main points of Calvinism = TULIP

T stands for Total depravity. This does not mean that all persons are as bad as they could possibly be. It means rather that all human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so

U stands for Unconditional election. An emphasis on election bothers many people, but the problem they feel is not actually with election; it is with depravity. If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.

L stands for Limited atonement. The name is potentially misleading, for it seems to suggest that reformed people want somehow to restrict the value of Christ's death. This is not the case. The value of Jesus' death is infinite. The question rather is what is the purpose of Christ's death, and what He accomplished in it. Did Christ intend to make salvation no more than possible? Or did He actually save those for whom He died? Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.

I stands for Irresistible grace. Left to ourselves we resist the grace of God. But when God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose.

P stands for Perseverance of the saints. A better name might be "the perseverance of God with the saints," but both ideas are actually involved. God perseveres with us, keeping us from falling away, as we would certainly do if He were not with us. But because He perseveres we also persevere. In fact, perseverance is the ultimate proof of election. We persevere because God preserves us from full and final falling away from Him.

John Chingford said...

Part 2

The above teachings of Calvinism lead to an attitude of "fatalism". If man does not have freewill and God DOES EVERYTHING and "all things work out together for the good" for the elect, then it stands to reason that Toronto Blessing etc MUST be of God and ecumenism is okay - specially as reformed theology are still affected by Catholic teachings like Augustine.

If conflicting scriptures show areas of Calvinism to be wrong, they merely "spiritualise" these verses. Therefore, Dominionism and reconstructionism is inevitable because Calvin teaches "Covenant" theology ie the new covenant is totally fulfilled by the church and that it will be glorious (numerically and spiritually) before Jesus returns - there will be NO rapture and no literal 7 year Great Tribulation.

I just wonder how Calvinism interpret "it is not God's Will that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance". If we do not have free will and cannot choose God (unless He chooses us) then everyone would be saved because it is not His Will that any should perish. However, we know that the Bible teaches that many are on the wide road of destruction and many will not go to Heaven. Therefore, something does not add up. We know that the Bible is innerrant, but systematic theology is fallible. Therefore Calvin must be wrong regarding free will.

The scriptures are clear (to me) that those God saves are eternally kept by Him, so I cannot agree with Arminianism either. The conclusion SURELY must be that God HAS given us free will to choose or reject Him, but if we choose Him we are then kept by Him eternally. When the bible discusses predestination and election I understand it to mean that God knew in advance who would receive or reject Him.

He knew from the very beginning of time! Therefore, effectively the elect are predestined, chosen because God sees the end from the beginning.

There are some parts of Calvin's theology that I DO agree with because there is consistent teachings of these areas throughout the Bible. I generally have more problems with Arminian teaching because it tends to be a "works" theology.

Anyway, based on the above study, I can now see how even the "pure in heart" true disciples can still preach those things because they simply HAVE to defend their theological position which they sincerely believe to be right.

Even many on my list may not actually be deliberately false teachers or prophets but simply those who have been so indoctrinated by false Calvinistic teachings that they just HAVE to teach those things.

What we need is leaders who are humble enough to be teachable and willing to modify their theological position (by opening their hearts, minds, eyes and ears) whenever any passages of scripture disprove their present position

Myfanwy said...

AMEN!!

Burning Lamp said...

John, you have compiled the most extensive list I have seen so far and your method of listing is very organized and logical. It is obvious that you have done your homework. Of course there are always names that could be added but I am sure you would be the first to say it is a work in progress.

One thing you could add to Chuck Smith Sr. is that he has ties to TBN and has appeared there numerous times.

John Chingford said...

Thanks BL

You are right. It is a work in progress. It is difficult to keep up to date with the latest information as it is changing so quickly.

I also have to bear in mind that God may change individuals opening their eyes and bring them out of these organisations. In the same way, others may later get infected if Rome gets to them and join these groups later. So my list can get out of date very quickly.

Also there seems to be an increasing number of newer ecumenical organisations rising up all over the place. I am finding it difficult to find time to cover everything.

I am hoping that this article and others (on the same subject) will help all readers to learn how to distinguish the false and true (of those not listed) by the methods I use. In the same way, hopefully (if I have listed someone who does not actually deserve the title of ecumenist or false teacher) the readers will have learnt how to check it out for themselves.

I say this, just in case my list is outdated. I hope the readers will be like "Bereans" check out what I am saying for themselves about these people. There is plenty of information about each of these people and the ecumenical organisations they have joined,throughout the internet, so it is easy enough to verify.

If anyone can prove me wrong on any of these people, please let me know, showing the clear evidence. I will then modify my lists.

Thanks

Colin said...

Hello John,
Hope all is well with you.

Just taking a detour through your site, and I find this list.

What a list!!!

Many I haven't heard of, so I can't comment. However those that I have heard of I would tend to agree that they are guilty as charged. Even to the seemingly innocous crime of supporting the Message! Though as you well know, this is no small thing. My wife used to buy books authored by Cynthia Heald (I think so she could become a 'better woman'!).I mean the junk they write?

Also she used to receive daily devotionals from Joni Eareckson Tada, and this woman says she 'never goes anywhere without the message'!
I have never believed 'healing and deliverance' ministries to be biblical. Only ministries that faithfully proclaim the way of salvation and guide us as to lead godly lives. However did not Derek Prince repent of his involvment in 'Shepherding'?
According to Alan Franklin of the 'Free Press Homepage' (whom you reccommend). Howard Conder and Doug Harris (Revelation tv and Reachout trust) say that it is ok to go to a Roman Catholic Church if there are no good churches locally! And they aren't in your list! Verily surely No Church IS better than ANY RC Church!? Matthew 18.20
I believe that it is important to expose false teachers in a biblical way.

John Chingford said...

Hi Colin

As mentioned within my comments, it is difficult for me to list those who are not attached to any of those groups.

As I haven't had time recently to look into other ecumenical groups, I have not been able to add these extra groups yet and therefore not been able (using the method I am using) to add those who belong to these other ecumenical groups.

As stated, this list may not be 100% totally spot on (or up to date)and may include those who should not be on it anymore and may not include those who should.

The whole purpose is NOT to tell everyone to rely unreservedly on my lists but for them to use it carefully as a guideline and then to check these people out for themselves.

The main point I am making is that it it the ORGANISATIONS that should not be trusted. Therefore, those associated should be questioned.

The purpose of this article is also to be used as a guideline so that others can figure it out for themselves (using the right criteria) to decide if a teacher/prophet should be included because of their ecumenical allegiance to Rome.

There are other types of false teacher/prophets that do not come into the ecumenical arena but are nonetheless false, but because this list ONLY focuses on ecumenically apostate leaders, it will not be included.

I agree that Doug Harris is of great cause for concern because of his statements recently. But which category do I put him into? Do I start including Revelation TV in my list? Possibly! I would need to spend a bit of time checking them out first, though. I know that men like Jacob Prasch have withdrawn from Revelation TV over their support of some TBN ministries.

For those wondering about Derek Prince (died in 2003), I am sure that there is plenty of information on him throughout the internet which will help you decide whether he was involved with Rome or not using the criteria I have set out throughout this blog.

Incidentally, I still list dead people because their ministry lives on through their organisations and through their teaching material and their followers, so although they are dead we still need to watch out for their teaching which is STILL accessible.

Colin said...

Point taken. A charismatic outfit that I used to be part of were heavily into Derek Prince. And as you say the ministry lives on. Perhaps you could have a category with 'Apostate Christian TV Stations' (all of them!) and 'Discernment Ministries'?

Maria L Trapp said...

I am a independent writer just beginning my first professional blog. One of my specialties is Christian apologetics.

The criteria for a cult is the following. Are these following the teachings of the Bible? and Do they follow the apostle's creed?

Every Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical church and ministry follow this creed.

It is very serious to accuse any leader of practicing false teaching. These can lead to splits in churches and ministries, which damages people's walk with Christ. It opens the door for Satan to attack the message of Jesus Christ and the Christians belonging to these groups.

I take exception to publishing all these ministries and discouraging people from supporting them in anyway without proof. I am not convinced all these people and ministries are engaging in false teaching.

In the end, we will all stand before God and give an account for our life on Earth. Either God will say "Well done, my good and faithful servant" or "Depart from me, I never knew you".


****
Note from administrator. This was originally sent in November 2011, but did not get published for personal reasons (too long to explain). I will now respond!

John Chingford said...

Hi Maria

Thanks for writing. I DO understand your concerns. However, if you check out this whole blog you would then understand why this list was produced. I am in the process of putting together another article which addresses some of your points.

For now, I will respond to some of the things you wrote.

You said "The criteria for a cult is the following. Are these following the teachings of the Bible? and Do they follow the apostle's creed?

Every Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical church and ministry follow this creed."

My reply: REALLY! Actually Catholics follow the doctrines of the "fathers" first and foremost and above the authority of the Bible. They do not believe in "sola scriptura", i.e, that all doctrine should be based solely from the Bible.

Regarding the apostles creed: it really does not matter what creed you have, if it is unscriptural it should be rejected.

Any creed should be totally in line with scripture. Now, I am not saying that the apostles creed is necessarily wrong (I don't know if the RC has a different creed from other denominations or not) but I am saying that our faith should be totally based upon what the Bible says direct and not upon mortal man's statement of what the faith should be.

You are concerned about splits in the church. I do understand that that can be a serious cause of concern. However, should we (to avoid splits) follow the rest of the lemmings in throwing themselves off the cliff? What about those who followed Jim Jones or David Koresh
to their death. Wouldn't it have been the loving thing to do, to have warned them about these cult leaders?

Paul told the Corinthians that they should not be equally yoked with unbelievers 2 Cor 6:14-16

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

(these unbelievers were actually followers of old Babylonic religion, which was an exact image of what you see in the Roiman church of today).

Paul told them to "come out from amongst them" i.e to split from them

Anonymous said...

Hi I was sitting in a service at springs church and heard leon fontaine say the following.."If you are not thankful you will lose the grace of God. The guy is a money hunger wolf trying to make inroads into calgary..rich alberta..He publishes a leadership colunm in the Sun every week with noe mention of Christ or the Gospel... He needs to be exposed for what he is

Anonymous said...

Hello John,

just found your blog today. Some interesting stuff here. As for this list, I think I can understand your intention which is commendable. However, I would think that a list of false teachings would be much more helpful than a list of false teachers. A teacher can change his opinion over his lifetime, but a teaching remains either true or false forever.

Also, you have some serious anachronisms in your list. There are several people listed as "associated with the Emerging Church" who in fact were dead long before the term "Emerging Church" was used: Madame Guyon, Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, C.S.Lewis, and others. - Certianly the teachings of these people were not completely Biblical, and possibly Emerging Church people quote them; but listing them as "associated with the Emerging Church" is clearly an anachronism.

RevMark said...

Just a few notes here. You have people listed as false teachers like Michael Card and Dr. Dobson. First, Michael Card is one of the most wonderful song writers in the world. His music is played and sang in churches all over. I have met the man and know his works.

Dr. Dobson is a member of the Nazarene faith and his books and teachings have helped literally millions in this country and others.

While I agree with you on the vast majority of the people named here, these two in my opinion, do not belong being listed as a false teacher/prophet. Just my thoughts. Thanks.

Ana Mariduena said...

Thank you for opening our eyes. I'm so sorry we have let them get rich for so many decades. I'm in the Miami area and Pastor Guillermo Maldonado founder of "Rey Jesus" church is an international renown preacher/teacher with a mega church.I have seen his name at contralobos.com as a false Apostle/teacher. Also, Pastor Alberto Delgado, a Kenneth Hagin,Word of Faith College graduate has a mega church in Miami, FL. I attended his church for 15 years and quit going there in 2000 because they gave too much emphasis on material prosperity, physical healing, and believed that if a Christian is going through tribulations was because must have been disobedient with the tithes and all the rest in the Bible. I saw Ana Mendez in your list but I didn't see another big one "Cash Luna" who is also been called a false teacher. Hope you check out these names.

Jessica Thomas said...

I'm curious what you mean by "Restoration and House Church Movement". Are you referring to the Stone-Campbell Restoration movement or something else entirely.

Thanks.