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Wednesday, 15 September 2010

Christian Protestant Denominations In 2010. Are They Now All Apostate? (Of Course Not). This Blog's Statement

I need to clarify the stance taken on this blog, regarding its views on todays Protestant Denominations. This is being done because the blog was questioned over its view of current denominations and believers.


It was claimed that the blog appeared to be dismissive of the millions of  born-again, evangelical, or bible-believing  christians who are members of denominational churches. They asked if I was suggesting that these were not "true" Christians and whether we were more "biblical" than them?

This (I know) is a sensitive issue and needs to be addressed,  in case many get unnecessarily discouraged in their faith, hurt or angry because of misunderstanding. I certainly do not want to give the wrong impression and encourage you to participate in this blog.

I will start this article by stating very emphatically that I am NOT saying that all denominational protestant churches (or all those believers within them) are not true Christians!  Note: Here is a more recent article (written 20 Feb 2013) regarding this subject:
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/in-these-days-of-apostasy-and-false.html

Actually it is not the building or the denomination which makes it Christian but the people inside it. A denomination  and individuals show that they are a true church or believer if
they base their faith and lives on Jesus (as revealed in scripture) and their basis of faith and life is on the undiluted and unadulterated Word of God (not on experiences). I am encouraging all such believers and churches to be careful not to base their faith or read the bible wearing denominational biased glasses, but are deeply committed in humility and adaptability to being taught by the Holy Spirit, comparing scripture with scripture and not rejecting any scriptures they feel are “not relevant” because “ALL (bible) scripture is inspired by God”.

What this blog is doing is to encourage believers to get into the Word rather than follow leaders, denominational biases or experiences. My post on how to be saved shows what I believe is a truly born-again believer, which is based on what the Bible tells us.

However, if a church, denomination or individual join themselves to the unChristian Catholic church (which bases its salvation on works) via the ecumenical movement, I have to question their relationship with the God of the Bible who says "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.....what fellowship is there light with darkness".


If you say (and can demonstrate it) that your church bases everything it does on the Word of God "righty handling the Word of Truth" and does not water down the Bible by making the Bible "relevant" or  distort the Word of God by using the heretical  "the message"  then I will welcome your church and individuals (as I stated in my profile). If you base your own life the same way, then I also welcome you as my brother.


Really, I do not make an issue on various unvital interpretations on certain topics (like eschatology etc) as long as these interpretations are not on the major issues of our salvation and do not deny the Lord or ashame the God of our salvation, or preach a “false” gospel.
Regarding “my links”. These are my links because I find that generally they are very sound with a wealth of good information. It does not mean I agree with them on everything. In fact I do not, but I focus on the areas I can agree with them.



As Paul said "I know in part" so I dare not say that I have got everything right - I don't, but I am willing to learn and adjust my interpretations as/when I am shown to be wrong. In fact, since opening this blog I have been challenged on some of my articles and had to edit them as I was shown to be wrong on some point or other. I am VERY happy to be corrected and (if I am wrong) will modify my interpretations, views and articles on my blog . This blog and myself are a “work in progress”.

The purpose of my blog is to expose the "false" (ie those who DO not follow the "whole" counsel of God, but who pick and choose only the parts they like). Too many churches and Christians do this. They ignore scripture verses or passages which contradict their teaching. Instead of showing humility to adapt their viewpoint, because of those scriptures, they basically ignore them or throw them out.

Paul told Timothy (which applies to all leaders and (really) to all believers) to “correctly handle the Word of Truth”


However, many churches (in these days) will accept almost anything for the sake of experience or church growth. It is mostly all of man and very little of God.

Churches that (at their very heart) serve God truthfully and follow truth and love for God, I applaud.


Paul stated that if the Galatians accept the false teaching they will be accepting leaven and this leaven would work its way right into the very heart of the church and destroy it. Jesus warned us about the "leaven" ie false teaching and hypocrisy of the pharisees.


So if our churches preach this false stuff it needs to be exposed and rooted out before the church becomes useless.


If you read most of my posts you will see this thread of warning running throughout the entire site.

To end with I would like to quote two passages:

2 Timothy 3:1-5
2 Timothy 4:2-4

1)  “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,  treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them”.

Actually if you read throughout 2 Timothy 2:25 to 2 Timothy 4:5 you will get the context showing that these words are referring to those INSIDE the church and  not so much those outside. All of those words seem to be applicable (in these days) to various denominations or individuals within those denominations. Many of my articles highlight this to be true.

2)  “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

21 comments:

Andrew Bowman said...

Hi John,

As someone who originally brought this up, I appreciate the clarification. But I still think you need to make your views a bit plainer.

Here's an example. I go to a denominational church. Every year we participate in a Good Friday event with other churches in our town, including Roman Catholics.

Does that make me an apostate in your view? Does that make my church apostate?

So please tell me, in your opinion, (1) is our participation in one ecumenical event a year "joining ourselves to the unChristian Catholic church"? (2) Is it being "unequally yoked"? (3) Are the Catholics unbelievers?

I'll let you know my answers after you've responded.

I was also unconvinced by your comments on the Bible. The truth is that we all look at the Bible with some degree of bias, and a non-denominational bias is just as bad as a denominational bias!!

Similarly, I have yet to encounter a Christian who doesn't adopt a selective approach to scripture. Do you believe that all parts of the "old testament" (I put it in quotes because it's not an appropriate name for the Bible that Jesus used) are applicable to you today? For example, do you treat Saturday as the sabbath and follow all the restrictions that the Bible specifies? Do you keep all the Biblical festivals of Leviticus 23? Conversely, do you celebrate extra-biblical festivals such as christmas and easter? It's well documented that these are of pagan origin.

Anyway, there's some food for thought. Do let me know your answers... And as the internet is so impersonal, I hope this comes across as I indend - a good-humored discussion about some contentious issues, not a slanging match.

John Chingford said...

Hi Andrew,

Part 1
Before I reply to this new comment, just to let you know that I have replied to your last comment on:

"List and Details On Other False Teachers and Prophets"

In relevance to THIS reply please check out my labels:

“Why Catholic Church Is Not A Christian Denomination”

which gives a list of articles demonstrating the apostate nature of the Catholic church – in particular please read this article :

“why the Catholic Church is Not a Christian Denomination” on:

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-catholic-church-is-not-christian.html

This article is my comprehensive answer to your questions above and shows why any form of ecumenicalism with the Catholic church IS on the road to the apostate. Why would a church want to fellowship with the RC, unless they considered it to be part of Christ? If they consider it Christian then on what basis?

However, some “good” churches may ignorantly join with the Catholics because they don’t realise that it is apostate.

I have witnessed the ecumenical drive from the early days and seen that many churches who innocently joined with the Catholics have now become apostate themselves. You have even got Billy Graham now declaring that all faiths lead to God.

Really it is the thin end of the wedge. If your church is fellowshipping with Catholics in a small way now – watch out, the whole structure of your church and its teachings could change (little by little) then become fully ecumenical, following Purpose Driven, Alpha, Emerging Church etc etc. I have seen it happen too many times.

As I stated no church or individuals should become unequally yoked with any form of apostasy. Paul made it clear that a little leaven will corrupt the whole thing.

Paul said to the Galatians that if anyone preached another Jesus (a Jesus plus works) he should be accursed. Paul did not mince his words with this sort of thing. He told the believers (at Ephesus) to watch out because wolves would come in (those in sheeps clothing) ravaging the flock.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 says:

“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.”

John Chingford said...

Part 2:
Regarding your questions about the Bible. I take the instructions given by Jesus that if He (and generally the whole of the New Testament) says something which makes the OT obsolete, then we no longer keep to those practices.

Remember the Sabbath was given to the OT Jews to mark them as different from the rest of the world. It was not given before Moses, so the gentile world never even knew about the Sabbath until the law was given.

You get no stories of the Sabbath being kept until then. Up until Moses it was circumcision that demonstrated God’s covenant with His people. They were given the Law to show them their sinfulness and need of redemption.

Through Jesus we are “saved by grace – not works”. We ARE in a different dispensation of grace. “We are no longer under law but under grace” is another verse which shows that the OT instructions for us has changed.

So we follow the OT unless the NT demonstrates a change. The OT is great for teaching us about God and how He deals with His people. The NT says the OT was a shadow of things to come.

So the OT illustrates the coming of Jesus. It IS still the Word of God because God still speaks to us through it and helps us to understand the NT better.

I do not follow the pagan festivals – only the teaching of Jesus which does not instruct us to remember his birthday. By the way, birthdays are a pagan introduction.

The NT indicates (because of the practices in the NT ie that they are probably not obsolete) that we should remember the 3 main Jewish feasts because they represent Jesus: past, present and future: Passover (the past - death and resurrection of Jesus), Pentecost (the present – the law of the Spirit in our hearts) and Tabernacles (the future – the Millennial reign of Christ).

I hope that answers your questions suitably.
God bless

Expected Imminently said...

Hello John

I do not think I could personally delete anything in your reply to Andrew's comments, only the addition of my hearty 'AMEN'!
Every blessing.
Sue

Andrew Bowman said...

John,

I'm a bit busy currently, but I don't think you explicitly answered my questions. In particular, did you respond to:

Here's an example. I go to a denominational church. Every year we participate in a Good Friday event with other churches in our town, including Roman Catholics.

Does that make me an apostate in your view? Does that make my church apostate?

So please tell me, in your opinion, (1) is our participation in one ecumenical event a year "joining ourselves to the unChristian Catholic church"? (2) Is it being "unequally yoked"? (3) Are the Catholics unbelievers?

There are five questions there - please could you be kind enough to give me five concrete answers with reasoning. I did check out your linked article but it didn't provide the answers to what I'm asking (forgive me if I'm stupid or I missed something).

John Chingford said...

Hi Andrew

I did answer all 5 questions. The first two I cannot answer directly (because they are personal to you) because only the Lord and You can absolutely answer those questions.

What I HAVE done is to lay out a basis to enable you to answer those questions personally.

Regarding the questions numbered 1-3, I did answer these too, but will elaborate further:

Part 1
1) is our participation in one ecumenical event a year "joining ourselves to the unChristian Catholic church"?

answer: If your ecumenical meeting includes the catholics then yes it is. That may seem harsh, but you need to understand the background of the Ecumenical system and where it comes from. If you again look at my article on the Catholic church you will see that I have now added 2 links (I could have included others)which show documents direct from the Vatican setting up the ecumenical wheels in motion and its plans for it (in its early days). So the driving power behind the ecumenical movement is the Catholic church. If your church is ecumenical, then it has one foot back into the Catholic church.

That article (of mine) also demonstrates why the Catholic church is NOT Christian church.

Btw, apostasy is falling away from the truth/faith handed down to us and following another way to God. Jude 1:2-4 explains it very well:
"I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written aboutlong ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord"

The catholic church has added much and do not JUST teach the Bible. Paul told Galatians that those who preach a Jesus PLUS gospel are preaching another Jesus and should be accursed (the Galatians were adding works to faith) and have fallen from grace. The Catholics preach Jesus plus works plus Mary, plus substantiation plus etc etc

The bible declares that if anything is added or taken away from the Bible it is a VERY serious matter. The Catholics do add a lot of stuff. To preach that Jesus death is not sufficient to save us but requires works is blasphemous and makes null and void the work of Christ to redeem us by His blood.

John Chingford said...

Part 2
2) Is it being "unequally yoked"?

answer: Paul made it clear that "a little leaven will corrupt the whole lump" meaning that if false teaching is left unchallenged and not removed the whole church will "little by little" gradually all preach error. Paul used a picture of yeast working its way throughout the dough, until everything was infected or affected by it. If you join yourselves to a corrupt organisation, it is just a matter of time before you also become corrupted.

Paul told the believers (at Ephesus) to watch out because wolves would come in (those in sheeps clothing) ravaging the flock.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 says:

“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.”

That last scripture passage is a good description of the Catholic church. One that is full of idols, praying to saints etc. The last thing Paul said was to come out from them. If he says you should come out, it would be even worse to join them.

3) Are the Catholics unbelievers?

answer: I have made it clear from the above and from my articles that the Catholic church ARE unbelievers because they do not trust in CHRIST ALONE and His grace (through His eternal blood which was poured out for us ONCE)for their salvation. They may say they do, but what they practice show that they DO NOT!

In closing, I will just paste a quote from one of my articles:

"I have stated many times on my blog (information gathered from reputable sources, through much research and investigation) and has been stated by many respected Christian leaders that Ecumenism should be avoided.

Why? Because it compromises and "waters down" true Christian, biblical teaching and faith. It is "leaven that leavens the whole lump" and corrupts the true church of God.

Ecumenism has also introduced new-age influences (which have occultic origins). The force behind the ecumenical movement is the Vatican whom controls it. They introduce ecumenism to charismatic, evangelical, protestant churches, by infiltrating these churches and by starting false new organisations and fake revivals

The whole purpose is to weaken the church that Christ died for with destructive heresies and practices."

John Chingford said...

Part 3

Please read Galatians 5:4-9 which shows that the leaven is referring to "works" of the law. It indicates that those who follow such things for their justification, do not have Christ, ie are unbelievers.

Throughout the scriptures, leaven is generally used to describe false teaching or evil practices. The warning is given (in the Bible) that unless treated it will spread and destroy.

Andrew Bowman said...

John,

I'm only going to give a quick answer to the first two questions.

Participating in the Good Friday event does not make my church (as in the community of people) nor myself apostate. With respect, this has nothing to do with the concept of apostacy whatsoever.

Here’s my answers to the final three questions, which will explain why I feel this way.

Is our participation in one ecumenical event a year "joining ourselves to the unChristian Catholic church"?

Our participation at this event does not require us to join ourselves TO anything or anyone, including any other participants. There is no ongoing commitment of any sort. We are simply joining WITH local people in a service to mark the crucifixion of Jesus. There is a big difference which you seem unable to appreciate.

The event is simply a gathering of people who all see Good Friday as one of the most significant dates in history. That is basically all we are saying that we have in common.

Is it being "unequally yoked"?

The term "unequally yoked" is an agricultural metaphor relating to ploughing a field with a pair of oxen, where it is important that the animals are able to walk in step, side by side. It's normally applied to marriage to an unbeliever.

Being at this event does not require us to walk side by side with anyone. My church lives out its faith as a community of Christians according to our particular convictions and distinctives, and this is not affected by our participation. Joining in on Good Friday doesn’t require us to be in step with anyone. We don’t have to change anything that we believe or do as a church. So there is no yoking taking place.

Near the start of your answer, you say "join yourselves to a corrupt organisation", and I repeat that we are not joining to anything. Nor are we joining with the catholic church as an organisation, any more than the catholics are joining the baptists, anglicans, methodists, pentecostals, URC, house churches, etc etc.

So your suggestion that we are unequally yoked is totally invalid. The concept is simply not applicable to this situation.

Are the Catholics unbelievers?

Like you, I have significant concerns about many aspects of Roman Catholicism. But that wasn’t my question. I asked if the Catholics are unbelievers.

Yes, I’m sure that there are many unbelievers in the Roman Catholic church. But there are unbelievers in all churches. However, there are also plenty of Christians in the Roman Catholic church. I’ve met a good number over the years.

Whether these people should leave is a another point altogether. But you simply cannot say that Catholics are unbelievers, because that is making a global statement which is not true. Who am I to say that anyone is an an unbeliever unless I know them personally?

Three final points:

Firstly, the participation of local evangelical churches at this event gives their leaders the opportunity to speak. And a number of powerful gospel messages have been delivered over the years. If these people refused to participate, opportunities to preach the gospel (including to catholics) would be diminished.

Secondly, you say that ecumenism compromises and "waters down" true Christian, biblical teaching and faith. How come, then, that there is no uniformity of belief amongst those churches that reject anything ecumenical? You will find a huge range of doctrinal approaches amongst independently-minded churches. They haven't been "leavened", so why don't they all share the same beliefs? To suggest that inter-church activities corrupt a pure gospel ignores the fact that there is no agreement to start with.

Thirdly, you claim that the Vatican infiltrates churches and starts fake revivals. Forgive me, but I'm not aware of of a single revival, fake or otherwise, that's been started by the Vatican. Where's the evidence for your claim?

John Chingford said...

Hi Andrew

I will answer your last comment in 3 sections:

1) Is joining once a year being "unequally yoked"?

I will quote 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 again but this time break it down in to 3:

“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.

For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.”

The second part of this scripture, could well be describing the Catholic church. Their “temple” is full of idols. In fact the origins of the Catholic church show that it comes from Babylonic religion who worshipped Belial.

This link http://english.ephesians3seven.com/What_Concord_Christ_Belial.pdf

will explain it very well, how Belial = the Catholic system.

The Catholic Church is not a Christian church (as I explained above) and is in darkness. So I ask the question, what is the point of having fellowship with them? And why not be obedient to this scripture of completely separating from them? Besides by joining with them you are condoning and declaring to the World your unity with them and actually compromising with darkness.

It goes on to say that the reason we should not do this – because we are the temple of God (with God’s light is in us).

I can understand your excellent motive in trying to win Catholics by using the annual get together as an opportunity and that IS a noble attempt. Does it REALLY work, though? Yes, maybe some may confess being “born-again” but how real is it and what do they actually mean by that term?

I will share my experience, which is appropriate to that question. Around the time that the last pope came to London 1982, I was trying to do the same thing by uniting with the Catholics (naively) believing that they were a Christian church who simply needed to understand the truth of the scriptures. I went to their services, befriended them, attended young peoples meetings etc. I was invited to their “charismatic” meetings. These meetings were filled with those who you would probably call “Christian”.

Once the priest even gave a message mentioning me as a protestant who was more catholic than the catholics. Not sure what he meant, but he gave this message shortly after I prayed for him and shared the bible with him.

Anyway, around this time, he led the charismatic meeting leading us in worship to Jesus. After spending some time worshipping Jesus, he said “ok, we have worshipped the king, let us now worship the Queen of Heaven”. Huh!!! God suddenly opened my eyes to what I was actually getting caught up in.

The fact is that Catholics have an agenda which is to deceive us into believing they are our friends but really they are counterfeiting real Christianity with the purpose of either dividing us or causing us to (eventually) join them.

Look at the way the Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury united together in the last week and how many protestant churches are singing the praises of the Pope. See how Premier Christian radio support the Pope. Emerging church is a great example of evangelical Christianity going down the path of Rome.

John Chingford said...

2) Are the Catholics unbelievers?

Before I answer that question I would like to ask “what constitutes a believer” and do the Catholics meet that criteria?

A believer is someone who believes (with heart, mind and soul) in Jesus as the Messiah and eternal Son of God (believing Jesus to be fully God having all the attributes of the Divinity) having died for our sins and physically resurrected from the dead and is alive forever more.

This person then puts their trust in Him ALONE for their salvation, through His blood as ALL sufficient to forgive his/her sins eternally and that we are saved by grace (unmerited favour) because of what He has done and NOT what WE have done.

This person then repents (not penitence) turns from going his own way and follows Jesus, receives the Holy Spirit becomes a new creation in Christ Jesus (born-again)

A catholic does not accept that it is enough to believe in Jesus and certainly do not trust in Christ ALONE for their salvation. They also put their trust in Mary (actually worship her, eg “hail Mary”), the saints, works, transubstantiation, the sacraments etc.

You say that there are some very good Christians amongst them. Well, I already gave you my testimony above.

I am also reminded of Cornelius in Acts 10. He was a devout worshipper of God, but was not born-again. He still needed to hear the message of Peter, receive Christ and be born-again.

The catholics you mention need to be born-again. Once they are, the Holy Spirit would show them the falseness of their religion and leave it. Besides, it has been commanded "come out of her".

3) Does the Vatican infiltrate churches and starts fake revivals. Where's the evidence for your claim?

Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, Billy Graham, Rick Warren, are just 4 examples of men who have Catholic backgrounds and are servants of Rome (although they won’t admit it, there is historical evidence. You can find much material on these people and their Catholic background and allegiences on the internet). For example even Billy Graham has now shown his true colours as follows:

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/01/billy-grahams-demise-into-apostasy.html

My blog shows that some of the most powerful people in Protestant/evangelical circles today are “ex” Catholics. They say they became born-again but still acknowledge Catholics as Christians and work with them. Under further investigation within my articles you will find enough evidence to suggest they are probably still acting as agents of Rome.

John Chingford said...

When we talk about ecumenism we are really talking about uniting evangelical and protestant churches with Rome.

It is not really being ecumenical if non-catholic churches (as long as they have not already joined with Rome) meet for fellowship together. I actually would encourage us to do that, despite any slightly different opinions.

True unity does not come about by compromising our foundational beliefs, faith in Jesus or trust in the inspired Word of God.

It comes through the bond of being a family of born-again believers having the same Spirit having fellowship with Jesus together (who unites us to love one another) without compromising truth.

John Chingford said...

The leaven I have been referring to (in scripture) is a compromising on the very basics of our faith, eg it teaches Jesus PLUS rather than Jesus ALONE for salvation. All evangelical churches should hold to the doctrine that Jesus alone is sufficient!Surely?

If they do not hold to that profession then they are no longer part of Christ.

I believe that all TRUE churches do hold to the teaching that Jesus Alone is sufficient for our salvation. As Paul said, if anyone preaches anything different he should be accursed

Anonymous said...

"Remember the Sabbath was given to the OT Jews to mark them as different from the rest of the world. It was not given before Moses, so the gentile world never even knew about the Sabbath until the law was given."

Your statement is untrue and shows that you manipulate the Bible.

The Sabbath day was instituted before sin even came into the world, the same as marriage. Both made for all mankind and given to all mankind in the garden of Eden.

The Sabbath day is different then feast day Sabbaths which were a part of the sacrificial system which came into effect after sin, UNLIKE the Sabbath day and marriage.

John Chingford said...

Hi Anonymous

I do everything I can to ensure that I do not manipulate the Bible because I preach against those who do such things. I always compare scripture with scripture thoroughly checking through the whole Bible (which I have read through many times over 30 plus years.

If I see a verse which does not fit in, I cannot rest until I check it out and ask myself "do I need to adapt my current viewpoints based on this revelation".

So I recheck all other verses that seem to counter this one. So, I then compare all these verses and the whole context in which they appear. This helps me to arrive at the overall truth.

In doing this I also consider the various interpretations given by other Christian leaders to see if their interpretations make sense or not.

In answer to your question on the Sabbath lets consider the facts.

1) Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. Although the Patriarchs would have passed on (by word of mouth) God's dealings with them throughout the time leading up to Moses) it was Moses who wrote it down.

2) Moses was in the very presence of God for 80 days (2 lots of 40). During that time God spoke face to face with Moses. God had ample time to inform Moses what should be written. The history of Genesis would have been reminded to Moses.

The NT says that the Holy Spirit would remind the Apostles of everything that Jesus said, so it is reasonable that God reminded Moses in the same way and also showed him the creation of the world.

3) God told Moses about the Sabbath. Up to that time no-one practiced it. Check it up, you will see that this is true. If anybody can show me (in Genesis) that the Sabbath was observed, I will change my views. I have checked thorougly but cannot trace anything.

The only reference we have in Genesis is in chapter 2 verses 2-3

"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

Does it use the word "sabbath" here. Also, it was Moses who wrote this. Did the people (before Moses) figure out that they should keep the seventh day special because God rested on it

Indeed, did they even know that God created everything in 6 days? Remember it was a revelation by God to Moses. Did anybody know about this or practice the Sabbath before this law was given?

Paul wrote in Romans 7:7-9

"I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

Paul is stating that the people did not know the Laws until the Law was given.

John Chingford said...

I need to clarify my last remark. Up until those verses Paul was explaining why God gave us the Commandments (or Law). It was to reveal (to us) our inner sinful nature and our need to be saved. Paul was identifying himself with the Jewish people (him also being Jewish) at the time the 10 Commandments were given.

Beforehand, everybody still carried with them their sinful nature inherited from Adam and Eve. However, they could not be fully aware of how sinful they were until the Law came into force and told them "do not".

So, if Paul says they were not aware of the Law until then, it must also apply to the Sabbath which was one of the Commandments.

Myfanwy said...

Hi John,

I was just reading through this blog and subsequent postings.

I just wanted to tell you, as we are on the subject of Catholicism, that for the last ten, yes TEN, years, I have been thinking about Christmas, Easter etc. The Lord really convicted me about celebrating these, but as I had children and all other Christians were celebrating, I found it hard to stand up for what I was starting to understand and know.

I recently found loads of reasons against these pagan rituals, celebrations, on a site that I told you about John.

It is so easy to follow others,
without questioning the real truth behind why we do things. I see you also do not celebrate them John.

John Chingford said...

Hi Myfanwy

I simply tell people something like:

"I do not celebrate Christmas or Easter because the Bible and history tell us that it is not something a Christian should do. It has satanic origins and therefore I refuse to be associated with it"

Although people look at me strange (at first) they soon accept my position and respect me for the stance. Actually I think they wish they could take the same stance.

However, children can be a BIG issue. As I have not yet had children (long story) I haven't had to face that one. It is much more difficult to explain to children that they should not be allowed to enjoy what other children experience.

Maybe, a way round that one, is to have an alternative. No Christmas trees, decorations and the such nor any mention of "Christmas" and definitely NO Santa Claus, but a "Christian celebration day" which emphasises what Jesus has done for us all. Celebrating His whole life (not His birth)taking the children out on a vacation. Would that work?

Just a thought.

Maybe others could come up with other alternatives. In fact SHOULD THERE be an alternative?

Myfanwy said...

Hi John,

Thanks for your comments on the subject of Christmas and Easter. I agree with what you say, and I have stated that this is my new position, to some of my friends. I think most think I am a bit mad! It is sad that many people do not 'think' for themselves, and I have to admit, neither did I for a very long time. And, as I said, when I did start to think about it, my children were small and I just shut it out of my mind. I was in a different place in my life then.
My children are all grown now, but it is still very hard, as none of them are saved and they will not listen to me about anything to do with the Lord.

John Chingford said...

Hi Everybody

I just noticed that there was something important that I failed to include regarding the topic of the sabbath and why not keeping the sabbath (regarding what Seven Day Adventists teach) is not vital regarding our salvation. The topic started on this comment (note just testing a new link facility):

Comment 1

and then finished on:

Comment 2 onwards

It will save you time to go to those comments first.

My addition is to remind us what Paul said about Abraham. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness"Rom 4:3. It wasn't works that saved him but his faith that made hi righteous. Paul goes to great lengths in the book of Romans to prove that.

We are not told that Abraham kept the sabbath. How could he, the law was not yet given. However, he did make a covenant with God through circumcision.

Do the Seven Day Adventists preach circumcision? I don't think so because they would rather come under the law dispensation rather than the pre or post law times which were totally based on faith in God and in the Messiah.

To prove that, Jesus said that Abraham saw my day and rejoiced. That means Abraham (and actually most of the patriarchs) had a faith in the Messiah, even Job, who said "I know that my redeemer lives and He shall stand at the latter day upon the Earth". There is evidence that Job may have lived around the same time as Abraham.

John Chingford said...

To follow up on the subject that we are no longer under law, please click here which takes us to an article on that subject. Regarding Seven Day Adventist issues, please go directly to the last section entitled "Does That Mean We Should Keep The OT Commandments and Some Laws"