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Wednesday, 26 January 2011

Why Book Of Enoch Is A Fake, Alert

Did the enemy write this?

Edited 31 Jan 2011 (Have added another link as evidence). See the bottom of this article. Also edited 29 Oct 2014 (in brown).

I read through the Book of Enoch about 6 months ago, out of interest because it was mentioned in the book of Jude (in the Bible). I did this (out of curiosity) to see why it was not considered as inspired scripture and also so that I could answer those who had read it.

The first thing I noticed was how scrambled it was - all over the place, much like what you find in other religions or cults holy books. I tried to make sense of it but could not.

Certainly it contradicts canonical scripture, quotes heresy and is nonsense by the way it has been put together. It doesn't give you the sense of inspiration or truth that the 66 God breathed books give in the recognised Bible.

Apparently, the book of Enoch was discovered together with the dead sea scrolls. Some people assume that because it was found with the dead sea scrolls, that that (in itself) authenticates its reliability. Are they correct? It actually reminds me of an excerpt from Matthew 13:27-28 "Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’He said to them,An enemy has done this". Jesus stated that the good seed is the Word of God and therefore the bad seed is NOT the word of God but a false or counterfeit version. This principle of teaching could be applied to the book of Enoch (bad seed) amongst the good seed found in the same place.

Here is one site that exposes the falseness of that Enoch book:

This article on that site highlights many things which illustrate that the Book of  Enoch is a fake. This is an excerpt from that page, which I agree with:

"As you read the Book of Enoch, you will notice 
a big difference between it and the genuine Word of God. The Bible is readable, from cover to cover, it tells a story. In sharp contrast, the Book of Enoch appears to be mocking the Word of God, quoting phrases here-and-there from the Bible, without any meaningful logic or order. This, coupled with a bunch of added mumbo-jumbo, makes the Book of Enoch a ridiculous piece of literature to even consider inspired by God. As a person progresses deeper into the Book of Enoch, they will eventually find the Books of Adam and Eve fascinating as well, and then they will be into New Age occultism without even realizing it. Don't be fooled friend, the Book of Enoch is occult material that will lead you into the senseless mysticism of pagan religion. The fact that it's being paraded to the public nowadays on Walt Disney's History Station as a SHOCKING revelation, should be a clear warning sign where this is all headed. The credibility of the Word of God is under malicious attack."

By the way, I do not endorse that site in its entirety, because the author has written other articles I cannot agree with, on other subjects. However, his material on this subject is well thought out. I will (in due course - as I find them) add other links which are more reputable, maybe replacing this one above.

The falseness of Enoch is also backed up by a sound reputable site:

Let us remember that Enoch WAS rejected as a canonical book. It is NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is just a lot of ramblings. Jude quoted from it because there was just ONE passage which was considered inspired. Nowhere else in the whole Bible are any other verses from Enoch quoted.

As Jude quoted a few verses from it then we also can use that section but be wary not to trust those ramblings and use it to justify  views on fallen angels, spirits in prison and the Nephilim or any other subject.

To be noted: Enoch is not considered the author of that book, by the way. It is quite obvious that one statement of Enoch was used as a quote in this book, in the attempt to endorse everything else in the book.

We should compare scripture with scripture (ie the inspired writings as contained within the canonical books). This also applies to the apocrapha writings which are NOT inspired and NOT canonical.

We should NEVER include within our theology teachings from those external books. In fact (as I understand it) much of the false teachings within the Catholic church are based on those external books including the apocrypha. Let us NOT become like them introducing external heresies but STICK to 66 inspired books of the Bible and encourage everybody to read those books alone as they are everything we need for our salvation, faith and journey.

Please see the comments section for some excellent extra material. "Expected Imminently" wrote using material from "blue letter bible" website showing the context of why Jude quoted a very small portion from the book of Enoch. For an excellent overview of Jude and what it says about book of Enoch, please click on this shortcut link:

Edited 31 Jan 2011
Please click on these 2 links for more reputed sources showing why book of Enoch cannot be trusted.


son of thunder said...

This was very timely as we are having a discussion about the Book of Enoch on the Christ in Prophecy Facebook group.

Thanks for posting this. It was very enlightening.

Expected Imminently said...


Great to see your post. I was preparing to ask Nathan his view - then along YOU come. :)

Praise the Lord!
Big hug from
Sue x

Expected Imminently said...

Hello John

I am familiar with the book of Enoch, I have my own copy – it sits on my bookshelf next to the Koran! They both follow the same pattern of mix and match error and ‘truth’.

Because Enoch is a historical figure found in Genesis chapters 4 and 5, 1Chronicles 1:3; Luke 3:37 and held up as a man of faith in Hebrews 11:5 it stands to reason some of his words, which are authenticated by the Revelation, have been remembered and included by Jude 1:14.

Concerning the extremely debatable ‘Book of Enoch’; and its authenticity based upon ONE sentence of prophecy. We also have words spoken by satan recorded in Scripture, does it follow we could therefore trust a book named The Book of Satan as authentic because the Bible contained some words he spoke – such ‘Hath God said…”?

The question we need to ask is ‘WHY’ Enoch’s words were included. As I cannot improve on the words of the late Ray Stedman, part of his commentary on Jude from the Blue Letter Bible, follows:

“…As Jude goes on, we can see his remarkable sense of imagery. It reminds us of James and also of the Lord Jesus in his ability to use all the events and scenes of life around him as illustrations. Listen to all of these, all describing USELESS PEOPLE: (my emphasis)
...waterless clouds, [promising rain, but never coming through] carried along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, [not only dead in Adam, but dead in that second death---rejecting Christ] uprooted wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars for whom the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved forever. (Jude 12, 13)

Expected Imminently said...


Then he quotes Enoch, in that quotation… He says that these are exactly the kind of men that were before the flood, and finally, he describes them as,
grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage.

That hurts, doesn't it? Some of us are guilty of some of these things, even though we do not fall into this classification. But now comes the positive, as Jude comes to a close:

You must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ...
They told you this would happen, so what are you going to do about it?
You, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith.
That means study your Bible; learn what the truth is. He doesn't say to them, "Organize a counter-movement. Try to get these people thrown out of the church." He says to oppose them with the positive; learn the truth…” Ray Stedman

One sentence of truth, does not the Bible make! The Nephilim and Giants were real enough, but throughout Church history, they have not been the one’s to affect the daily lives of Christians. Rather, in the context of what Jude was contending about, he applied the known words of Enoch to underline the problems with ordinary people, both in and outside the Church. Never mind ‘giants’; its false teachers, prophets, apostles – one another, that we are contending against for the Faith; today is exactly as it was in the days of Noah. Here is the passage that gets it all in context. Please note verses 3,4. This passage gets verses 14-15 (quote from Enoch) properly into context.

Expected Imminently said...

cont ..

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.
19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. Maintain Your Life with God
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. Glory to God
Jude has mentioned ENOCH because MANKIND today, are no better than MANKIND in Enoch’s time on earth. Just as God judged the earth with a flood, This time His judgment is coming fiercer and more powerfully than this world has ever known before. Jude is addressing MANKIND under judgment and NOTHING about Nephilim and Giants.


Unknown said...

Thanks EI

excellent material

Expected Imminently said...

Hello John

Concerning these verses.

Genesis 6:1,2. And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

5 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, WHEN the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Gibbowr meaning strong, mighty, valiant.

As I am in total agreement with your concern over ‘The Book of Enoch’, I thought I would address an inevitable challenge that is bound to crop up in the article by David J. Stewart.

It’s such a shame that David so often spoils a good piece of work by producing a lame conclusion as in the case of Gen.6:5.

It is an inconvenient truth that ‘the sons of God’ elsewhere referred to as angels did indeed copulate with the ‘daughters of men’ and produced offspring named as ‘giants’.

There is a time marker provided as evidence ‘WHEN’ these giants came into being, it was the result of that illicit union both before and after the flood.

AT the flood the only survivors were the righteous family of Noah, and yet these ‘giant’s’, some of whom were bigger than Goliath, still stalked the earth in colonies such as Bashan.

Chuck Smith observes that although God’s word states ‘angels neither marry or are given in marriage’ does not mean they are sexless; and all angels are called HE.

The Sethite theory is conjecture without any Biblical backing and it is illogical. How ever can Godly men, by mating with ungodly women, manage to produce ‘giants’? Not only that, the Sethite men weren’t so‘Godly’ if they were co-habiting with un-godly women, were they. Too silly!

It’s difficult and bewildering enough to contemplate, but its best to stick to God’s actual wording, even if we don’t understand it. Somehow, these fallen angels ‘left their first estate’ and did the forbidden.

We need to accept its one of those ‘hidden things’ that belongs to God.


Pete said...

Hi John
AS far as I am aware the oldest surviving copy of the Book of Enoch is Ethiopian. There is a fair chance in my mind that what was quoted from by Jude, was an entirely different manuscript. Without the usual checks and balances applied to the preservation of written material, they can easily be distorted, or even worse, deliberately corrupted.

Unknown said...

Yes Pete, you are right.

Expected Imminently said...

John and Pete

Yes! if memory serves me, it was
1Enoch. Totally different.

Expected Imminently said...

It’s a long time ago, but when I was in school doing Comprehension in English, the teacher would write up a list of titles onto the blackboard. The idea was for us to choose a title that inspired us to write a composition that was fictional or factual.

My only claim to fame was that the fiction I wrote from my title choice of ‘Oswald’, was sent by my teacher, into a writing competition run by ‘Blue Peter’ of children’s BBC TV in 1960. I won for the eldest group, and artist Tony Hart drew the accompanying pictures as my story was read out on TV. (It was about an Ostrich who was holder of the secrets of the sand)

Apart from showing off by giving this information, it is also a way to understand how ‘The Book of Enoch’ may well have come to be written? Others have noted the similarity of these ‘stories’ to the Greek Tragedies, Aesop’s Fables and so on. Most of us have watched the film ‘Jason and the Argonauts’ which include all manner of ‘giants’ such as Hercules, the Hydra, and the many god’s of Olympus, all of whom had giant stature. It’s said that the Greeks were drawing from ancient history, and embroidering the word of mouth tales of when the giants of Genesis actually did stalk the earth?

Somewhere among my scribbles, there is an unfinished, hand written story I wrote in the 1970’s based upon this very book, the Bible account and a vivid imagination, so much so that I even managed to frighten myself!

I’m not too sure about this, but I read somewhere that ‘The Book of Enoch’ dated a few hundred years before Christ? What I strongly suspect; this book is the Hebrew equivalent to modern day ‘Star Wars’; or the tales of ‘Arthur Pen Dragon’ and ‘Robin Hood’. Even at the start of a new millennium there are some who take very literally the ‘Arthurian Legend’, and apply their imaginations to a past ‘reality’.

In my opinion, Jude 14, 15; may well have been part of the creative stimulus required for an exciting piece of fiction, written by a professional, travelling story teller to add to his repertoire. Earning a living not unlike the ‘Punch and Judy’ man, the Mummers and the many travelling entertainers.

I know that along the ‘Camel Train’ route’s that crisscrossed the desert; story telling was very popular sat around a blazing camp fire at night. In part, this is how the Gospel was spread, and there is a mishmash of both the Old and New Testament accounts woven into the Koran taken from the genuine and mingled with creative fiction – or perhaps I should I say ‘angelic information’?

This, to me, is a valid explanation of how this now infamous book came to be written and believed.


Unknown said...

For those who get my automatic updates, please note that I have added another link of evidence within this article.

D said...


I posted some comments the other day, did you receive them? I also emailed you privately and asked about it...

Unknown said...

Hi D

I am sorry that you have not seen my reply.

I have replied to your private email to me, yesterday. I have also informed you within your blog that I have replied. I am now putting it here, to give another avenue so that you may see my reply.

Basically, because you emailed me privately I have replied privately, so will not copy/paste it here.

I look forward to your reply.

God bless

Robert Muir said...

Hi there John

The Lord has laid it on my heart to write to you with words of encouragement and support after having read the conversation that you and Bob Mitchell had in the comments area of the Shofar Ministries website the other day over a discussion that was taking place relative to the book of Enoch.

I am not taking sides at all relative over a topic matter which I feel to be neither here nor there.

As a result of that conversation, and with your decision not to contribute any further on the Shofar Ministries BlogSpot, I still felt the urgency to write to try and encourage you return to the blog just as soon as you are able to do so.

As I had said in my posting, I am not an expert on the topic matter, nor do I have any degree of proficiency in anything really very much at all.

I am just your average man in the street. It was just that some of your comments relative to certain topic matters were so well thought out and presented that you would be sadly missed, and that those who come to the blog would be much worse off spiritually should you remain adamant in your decision to no longer participate in the comments area of BMs blog.

So please return to the blog ASAP -- as you are sorely missed. In the meantime, I will continue to pray for you about this, hoping that you do indeed return to that blog as soon as you can.

God Bless

Unknown said...

Thanks Robert for those kind words.

I am blessed by the change I see in you.

I will take on board what you have said and pray about it.

I am still checking out Bob's blog everyday to assess if there is any real change. I don't believe I can contribute as long as Bob allows and encourages dangerous doctrine to spread.

My latest concern is over a newbie who just keeps on spreading leaven, without Bob challenging it properly.

These are the reasons I left:

Firstly Bob introduced a video from false prophets scaring us into selfish storing up necessities in barns denying Matthew 6 which says God WILL provide. Bob would not be moved that this video was damaging and unscriptural to our faith in God to provide as Jesus promised.

Secondly the Newbie started spreading the following with little challenge from Bob:

1) hidden numerology in the Bible which was shown to be occultic in its origins, although Bob's reply was ok ish.

2) book of Enoch stating it to be inspired. Bob never adequately refuted her argument and in many ways supported it. Although he later detracted but not sufficiently as he still said it was an important book, when in fact it is a false book entirely.

3) Armstrongism. Credit to Bob, on this occasion because he immediately debunked it.

This person is deliberately causing trouble but Bob does not seem to recognise this. So until I sense more censorship within that site, stopping the poison, I will remain at arm's length.

Especially as Bob seems to discard most of what I say or ridicule it (possibly unintentioned). He also(maybe accidentally) does and says inaccurate things which could discredit me and therefore this blog.

Therefore, I feel it is not wise to participate in that blog if he continues to do that, anymore.

I am not hurt or upset, neither am I trying to elevate or protect myself (I am just a sinner saved by grace) but trying to extol Jesus.

I will explain. As I am an ambassador for Christ (within my blog) anything which discredits the blog can be detrimental to the effectiveness of the blog. This is why I have to be careful.

God bless

D said...

Hi John, I never got that email (and yes, I checked the spam folder!)

Not sure what happened...

I guess I was just looking forward to talking about the whole matter with you, cuz I'm certainly not trying to be dogmatic about it or anything...

I don't believe the Book of Enoch offers any new insight into the Gospel or anything that we don't find in scripture already, then again, I don't think it contradicts scripture either. But that's just my take...

Hope things can move on from here either way, in the end, it is Christ and His gospel that is most important!

In Him, Daniel

Unknown said...

Hi D

I have just now, posted my comments again to your personal email address. The one you used to notify me in the first place.

Tony Cox said...

Well - hello there Robert Muir - good to see you back out there.

I tend to be of the same thought as John when it comes to material such as this. Although there may be valuable historical information contained within the book - I personally do not steer anyone towards reading anything that may present itself or appear as inspired but does not match up scripturally regardless of any other historical information it may have.

I'm not knocking Bob here - just understand where John is coming from - as I have seen too many times already where some who have a genuine desire to follow Christ, but are still a "baby" in their faith can be led seriously astray when introduced to material that is not scripturally sound.

Anonymous-Hebrews said...

Hello, I came across your website, because I was trying to look up information on the "book of Enoch" because I just threw it out about two days ago (I prayed for God to let me know about any cursed objects in my room, and home, and it seems to be one of the last ones "I hope")

Well I had not read it for many months, and after I picked it up, I started getting really tempted. Finally I realized it had to be that book. I got saved about a week to a week and a half ago. I'm still very immature, and seem to have trouble being able to effectively preach the Gospel.

I tried today when I went up to the bank, and tried to speak to one of the secretaries, and asked them if they knew what the true gospel was.

They said yeah, and I tried explaining a little more. And they agreed with me, after that I left, as I was not sure what to do. I went out to my truck and about cried, because I felt I failed, which I know we do, and will, because were all sinners, and I can relate to what Paul said in I Timothy 1:15.

At this point in time, I don't know if I can even do the work of taking the Gospel, still young in Christ and the scriptures, and the times were living in make it all the more shortening. I know Jesus talked about a time when darkness will come, when no man can work.

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ though were saved by grace through faith, rather than works! Still I desire to take the gospel to who I can. Though so far I have only spoken to two people, one within my town, and another just a few miles up the road at another small town.

I live in a very small town, population under 500. And most towns around us are small, and all the churches around us are either not doing services, dead, or apostate. I would say maybe 1-2 churches even gather, and I'm not sure about one of them.

If anyone lives in western Missouri, about 50 miles or so south of it, let me know. If your a born again believer who wants to have fellowship, because I simply can't find any. Also I would strongly say that you should use the King James Authorized Version.

It is the TRUE and divinely inspired word of God. Why do I believe this? read Psalm 12:6 in the King James, it was the seventh English bible to be made. The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen. Anonymous-Hebrews 10:31/12:28-29

Unknown said...

Hi Everyone

Anonymous-Hebrews wrote a comment on another article, but I published the comment onto 2 more appropriate articles. I have posted it here and also on the below link.

Please respond to Anonymous Hebrews, within this following article if it relates to his/her specific needs.


Unknown said...

I received a long comment from Someone who basically extolled the virtues of the Book of Enoch. I decided NOT to publish the comment because there may be some readers who will be wrongly influenced by such comments.

As this blog WILL NOT encourage anything which borders on heresy, false teaching or are words which could be detrimental moving away from sound teaching or if I consider it to be unhelpfully dangerous, then I will not publish it.

In this case "somebody" wrote such things.

My next comment will be my reply to this person, demonstrating why the Book of Enoch will not be condoned by this blog

Unknown said...

Hi "Somebody".

I have not had time to reply to your Comments, until now.

It seems to me that I need to ask you some serious questions.

1) Do you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word Of God and that every word, sentence, verse, chapter, book is the inspired and authoritative Word from God?

2) Do you believe that the Bible (in its present form) does not need to be added to or taken from and is sufficient for ALL doctrine without the need of external books to decide The bible's interpretation?

3) Do you believe that comparing scripture with scripture (using only thje present form of the Bible, ie 66 Books) is sufficient for the Bible's own self interpreting of difficult passages?

4) Do you believe that it is wrong to use non canonical books to determine doctrine or use to interpret a few isolated verses in the 66 Books of the Bible?

5) Do you believe that canonical scripture alone should be used to determine doctrine?

6) Do you believe that the Book of Enoch should have been included as a 67th Book of the Bible?

7) Do you believe that Noah's flood took place and that it was a total GLOBAL catastrophe?

I see little point in continuing debating about the authenticity of the Book of Enoch, because of those 7 questions.

However, I will close with an important thing to consider. Did you know that the first books of the Bible were not written until the time of Moses.

Until then historians passed on God's Word by word of mouth. God dictated to Moses during those 2 sets of 40 days how the Earth was created etc etc.

Moses would have known the stories passed on by Noah etc but God showed Moses what to write. I say this because Moses was the first one who knew how to write when he studied as an Eyptian.

Even if writing existed beforehand, everything written was destroyed by the Noahic global flood. Enoch was raptured BEFORE the global flood. How could he have a book AFTER the flood?

As I stated, much was passed on by word of mouth, especially important historical information and inspired sayings. This was important once everything was lost at the global flood.

Incidentally, Enoch gave birth to Methusaleh who (as I understand it) represented God's judgement, ie the year that Methusaleh died, the flood would come. He didn't die in the flood but beforehand. It was a sign that God's judgement would arise.

So, Enoch was held in very high esteem on 2 accounts. Therefore the statement that Jude gave may well have been the only thing that God wanted to be remembered as scripture and to be counted worthy of mention. The fact that the book of Enoch NEVER made the Bible and didn't even make the 2nd string (apocrypha) but the 3rd string of uninspired books. It was GOD who rejected the Book of Enoch, so we should too.

Please compare the style of the quoran with Enoch in the way passages are presented. Very similar, which would indicate it was probably written about the same time

Unknown said...

Hello Everyone!

I'm new to the site and find it very interesting. I love studying Gods Word,especially Prophecy. I came across The Book of Enoch about 15yrs ago. I have picked it up AND put it down many times. From what I understand there are actually a collection of Books within The Book of Enoch. Even though it is not in chronological order I thought it gives alot of insight. It covers over 70 subjects concerning sin, resurrection, and the future. I (felt) lucky to have this. Glad to have found you.

God Bless

Anonymous said...

I suspect that the "Book of Enoch" was written after the book of Jude, copying verses 14 and 15 in an attempt to give authenticity to this apocryphal writing. I suspect that there existed an authentic book of Enoch that has been lost, or that Enoch's prophesy had been passed down verbally and was well-known among the Jews of that day.

Unknown said...

Hi Everyone

A number of angry writers (not published) have told me that the book of Enoch was discovered together with the dead sea scrolls. These people assume that because it was found with the dead sea scrolls, that that (in itself) authenticates its reliability. Are they correct?

It actually reminds me of an excerpt from Matthew 13:27-28 "Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this". Jesus stated that the good seed is the Word of God and therefore the bad seed is NOT the word of God but a false or counterfeit version.

This principle of teaching could be applied to the book of Enoch (bad seed) amongst the good seed found in the same place.