tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post6139736353456149787..comments2024-03-22T02:49:13.173+00:00Comments on Last Days Watchman: My Rapture and End Times StanceAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-18351280114224223192014-11-22T23:19:38.811+00:002014-11-22T23:19:38.811+00:00Here is a little about Dave MacPherson:
"He ...Here is a little about Dave MacPherson:<br /><br />"He began to vigorously attack the pre-tribulation rapture in the early 1970s, claiming his historical research showed that a teenage Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald came up with the idea in the 1830. This happened when she was a member of the Catholic Apostolic Church. While that is historical nonsense, he still says all writings on the pre-tribulation rapture are full of revisions, cover-ups, altercations, deceptions and confusions. Summed up, it's a conspiracy.<br /><br />His books, riddled with errors, have been discredited with lacking historical method. He claims to be the "Pretrib Rapture Answerman." Being an anti-pretribulationist has become his life's crusade, and he is said to be publicly endorsed by numerous Christian leaders including premill, amill, postmill, preterist, historicist, futurist, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib, charismatic, dominionist, reformed, orthodox, and independents. That's a widely traveled road."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-61125004224411315032014-11-22T23:14:05.081+00:002014-11-22T23:14:05.081+00:00THIS IS TO DEBUNK A FALSE ACCUSATION AGAINST THE P...<b>THIS IS TO DEBUNK A FALSE ACCUSATION AGAINST THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHING</b><br /><br />There is a rumour which has spread far and wide, circulating for many years, started by Dave MacPherson and then Rosenthal. These rumours are NOT TRUE! This comment will now deal with it.<br /><br />The accusations are that pretrib was never taught by the early church and that it is a recent invention by Darby who was influenced in this theology by Jesuits and by an occultic girl called Margaret MacDonald. Regarding the Jesuits, they say that these were trying to take the heat off the Vatican by introducing a futuristic view on the prophecies in the book of Revelation.<br /><br />I will now reveal what is actually true and try to destroy the myths of those stories once and for all, by asking you to read the rebuttal links below which definitely prove the accusations to be false.<br /><br />Quite honestly these guys who say that the pretrib doctrine first came from a Jesuit are lying. Again, it is lies when they say that pretrib was not taught by the early church fathers. Besides, it really does not matter what mere humans teach - all that matters is what the Bible teaches on the subject, anyway.<br /><br />Anyway, here is the evidence that the early church DID teach pretrib:<br /><br />http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/<br /><br />https://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/tt14.html<br /><br />Then what about the Jesuits? Actually both the Jesuit priests Ribera and Lacunza and Margaret MacDonald and Irving were all post trib. Those Jesuits introduced a rapture 45 days before the Second Coming. None of them taught a pretrib rapture.<br /><br />See these links:<br />http://btamxx.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/the-jesuits-and-the-rapture-rebuttal/<br /><br />The Manuel Lacunza Conspiracy <br /><br />https://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/MythsoftheOriginofPretribulationism_2.html<br /><br />Quite honestly, we need to consider that the bible had been kept from lay people for a very very long time. It took quite a long time after the reformation before the average person was able to read (let alone study) the Word of God.<br /><br />As with Josiah in the OT a number of truths had to be rediscovered after they had been lost for a long time. Why couldn't it have just been a matter of time before God opened long lost treasures from the scriptures after a thousand or so years in darkness.<br /><br />Regarding 2 Thes 2. Here is a link that (if conclusive) would settle the matter once and for all:<br />https://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html<br /><br />I have no great issue if some believers choose not to be pre trib (as long as they DO believe in a rapture at some stage because the Bible is clear that there WILL be one). What I DO have an issue with is those (by disputing pretrib) calling us heretics and worse by using LIES rather than truth, by accusing us of something blatantly not true.<br /><br />In fact, I have discovered a rather nasty element amongst such people who actually display an unloving and totally unChrist like behaviour towards us. If they want to call us heretics then how would they describe themselves (not born again?) if they show such dishonesty, lies and hatred. What is motivating such hatred?<br /><br />I hope you can now accept that pretrib theology is not something new with Darby. I hope you can now accept that we are NOT influenced by those Jesuits and that our accusers are telling lies.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-9013447826371740562012-03-22T14:54:49.677+00:002012-03-22T14:54:49.677+00:00Colin, I agree that often we must choose between l...Colin, I agree that often we must choose between loved ones and following Christ in our lives. However, He exhorts us to reach out to others with the Gospel and to pray and intercede for others. Jesus' message is one of love for others and concern for their eternal destiny. <br /><br />Yes, there are those in certain places in the world today who have to leave their families to follow Christ and they ae persecuted for their faith and even killed. This has always been the case from the early days of the Church when many have been martyred for their faith.<br /><br />However, after the Church Age ends, the scenario changes. False professors will be left to face the Great Tribulation while the saints will be safely home in heaven. There will be Tribulation saints who must endure and will be martyred for their faith. <br /><br />You are correct in that God is sovereign. However, a proper understanding of His sovereignty is essential to understanding the end times. That is a whole other topic.<br /><br />You are right, that the true Gospel is not going forth as it once did, but there is still light in the darkness. When the Church is taken out, things will change drastically. <br /><br />True believers who compose the Body of Christ will not be left to endure the horrible events that are to come. Persecution will be world-wide, not isolated. Some refer to this as an escapist fantasy. I prefer to call it the Blessed Hope. If one contemplates going through the Great Tribulation, it cannot but instill fear. And many are living in fear because they believe this by feeling they have to prepare for the worst by physical means. <br /><br />The Word must be rightly divided.<br /><br />May the Lord bless you!BLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-41839153570689619622012-03-22T14:40:35.282+00:002012-03-22T14:40:35.282+00:00Hi Everyone
Someone (I will not disclose their na...Hi Everyone<br /><br />Someone (I will not disclose their name or their contents for privacy reasons) wrote to my personal email address, implying that the early church did not teach the "secret rapture".<br /><br />As it is applicable to this article, I thought you may be interested in my reply as follows:<br /><br />"I am fully aware of this type of viewpoint. Heard it many times before. The problem which such teachers is that they completely misrepresent the position of pre tribbers and use the "straw man argument" tactic to prove their point.<br /><br />They call it a "secret rapture". We do not call it a secret rapture and do not appreciate the mocking description.<br /><br />It is not secret because the whole world will know about it. It will be an event which will quickly have massive repercussions throughout the world.<br /><br />Actually, in truth, the very earliest church taught a pretrib rapture.<br /><br />it was the Roman institution and these so called "fathers" of the faith who removed the doctrine of the rapture because of their dominionistic agenda. The rapture did not fit their hidden agenda so they removed it.<br /><br />The reformers were also still being influenced by Rome until the full availability of the Bible enabled proper Bible study to take place. It was through proper Bible study that long lost truths of scripture were re-introduced to the church - the rapture being one of them.<br /><br />If you are opposed to the Roman ecumenical dominionistic approach (which has infiltrated evangelical Christianity) then surely you would want to question all the teachings of those who promote dominionism, and therefore realise that it is these who foremost attack the pre tribbers.<br /><br /><br />Anyway, if I am wrong about pretrib, it will not affect my relationship with Jesus nor remove the eternal security I have that "he who began a good work in me will bring it to completion until the Day of Christ". I am saved by GRACE ALONE and not by any "works" that I can do to prepare myself. It is from faith to faith and nothing I can do can prepare myself (or take away) from what will come upon us.<br /><br />All we can do is put our full trust in the "way, the truth and the Life" to see us though. Can anything separate us from the love that is in Christ? As long as we keep to the pure gospel believing in the truth of all those things which have already happened, it doesn't matter too much if our speculations (on those things still to happen) are wrong, Does it?"<br /><br />God blessAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-56234576558408671982012-03-22T13:52:07.218+00:002012-03-22T13:52:07.218+00:00Hi Colin
Sorry that it has taken so long to publi...Hi Colin<br /><br />Sorry that it has taken so long to publish your comment (today only). As I stated on the home page, I have been unable to access the internet much over the last few weeks.<br /><br />Your reference to "those who endure to the end, will be saved" (in context) surely refers to those left behind after the rapture. These (I believe) will not face the same quality/quantity of grace that we now enjoy.<br /><br />At the moment we are saved by grace through faith. It is ALL of God and NONE of self effort. We are being kept/protected by God through the Holy Spirit and CANNOT (if we are born-again) lose our salvation because it is "HE who works in us to will and to act according to His good pleasure". To say that we need to endure to the end suggests "works" to save us. That may well be the case for post rapture saints but is NOT applicable to us.<br /><br />The present born-again church WILL endure to the end NOT by works of self effort but by the grace of God working through us in HIS strength. Whereas, that message of endurance to the end was for post rapture saints. that HAS to be the case, otherwise Jesus would be teaching "works" in "self effort" which is contradictory to His general teachings such as "abiding in the vine" "without me you can do nothing".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-68926640948207365112012-03-09T06:04:22.438+00:002012-03-09T06:04:22.438+00:00Pretrib view:
All believers, the Church, taken by...Pretrib view: <br />All believers, the Church, taken by Jesus before the 7years begins.<br /> <br />Thousands will hear the Gospel from Elijah, the two witnesses and the 144k and thousands will die for their trust in Jesus BEFORE the AoD is set up. Few will survive the remaing 3 1/2 years to the end.<br /><br />At the 2nd Coming, all unsaved will be killed by the Lord's Sword. Believers that survive will repopulate earth during the 1k.<br /><br />Post view:<br />Many thousands of Israel/Church will die for the faith OR they are 'hidden'from harm?<br /><br />At the 2nd Coming, all believing survivors (Israel/Church) will be raptured.<br /><br />All unbelievers will be slain at the 2nd Coming by the sword of The Lord.<br /><br />To clarify ALL believers (Israel/Church) will be raptured at the 2nd Coming and ALL unbelievers will die!<br /><br />There are no believing survivors who can go into the 1k to repopulate earth.Maranathanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-1408723704595259272012-03-08T12:09:26.758+00:002012-03-08T12:09:26.758+00:00BL,
As we know the time of 'Jacob's troubl...BL,<br />As we know the time of 'Jacob's trouble' or great tribulation which is 1260 days (pre-trib say 7 years)will be a time like there has never been 'since the beginning of the world to this time,nor ever shall be';Matt 24.21.<br />Whatever one's eschatological view, we can all agree that the world is NOT going to be a good place to be when the 'Man of sin is revealed'; 2 Thess 2.3.<br />I believe that we can 'escape' these things by 'praying always that we are accounted worthy'; Luke 21.36.<br />We must pray daily as the apostles prayed, 'Lord increase our faith'; Luke 17.5.<br />As for persecution we will be 'hated of all men for My name's sake,but he that endureth to the end shall be saved,' Matt 10.22.<br />Regarding your comments about 'torture and threats' to family members, I would say that if they renounce the Lord, then they were false professors: 'He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me', Matt 10.37. Read the next few verses in context.<br />Never forget that 'He loved us while we were yet sinners, and Christ died for us', Romans 5.8.<br />Do we really understand the gravity of His words in Matt 10.33; 'But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven'. Do we REALLY believe these words?<br />Before I believed in the sovereignty of God Matthew 10.34-36 used to make no sense to me,however as my faith increases I detect an ever increasing coldness toward me from family members who don't believe.<br />I have been to several so-called evangelical church services recently and I CAN assure you that they preach a false gospel.<br /><br />God bless youcolinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-12317054707226228262012-03-08T01:35:08.850+00:002012-03-08T01:35:08.850+00:00Colin I found this interpretation of what will occ...Colin I found this interpretation of what will occur so that no one will be without excuse when told they must receive the Mark. IMHO this would not apply to believers as we would not be on earth at this time. Interested to know what you think:<br /><br />Right after the false prophet issues an order forcing everyone to receive the Mark of the Beast, God will send three angels to Earth. The first will proclaim the everlasting Gospel to every nation, tribe, language, and people. The second will announce that Babylon’s destruction is imminent, and the third will warn the people of Earth that anyone who decides to take the mark will suffer eternal punishment (Rev. 14:6-11).<br /><br />In short there will be no one on Earth without the knowledge of the Gospel, no one who hasn’t been warned against taking the mark, and no possibility of salvation for those for those who take it anyway.BLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-71485601670715049712012-03-08T01:29:42.771+00:002012-03-08T01:29:42.771+00:00Colin, thank you for your reply. I can see that th...Colin, thank you for your reply. I can see that there are many areas of agreement that we share. And you are right, it does us all well to listen to one another and carry on civil discourse about such topics. <br /><br />But at the end of the day I would have to agree that there are some irreconciable differences, but they are not ones that lead to division. <br /><br />I have studied prophecy for many years and have visited and revisited the various positions and still come back to pre-trib. So you could say I am firmly rooted in that position. However, I am prepared to face what might happen in the scenario you subscribe to because it is my aim to walk with the Lord and I know He will take care of me. I will either go in the Rapture or be at home with Him. If it is not pre-trib I will most certainly be martyred. <br /><br />I do have one observation. What if there are believers who because of extreme torture or threats to family members renouce the Lord? That is a real possiblity if Christians are not taken out before things get really bad. Do you believe in eternal security of the believer? If so, we cannot have it both ways. <br /><br />You are a brother in Christ and no difference of opinion will change that. We can simply pray for one another and prepare for whatever is on God's calendar.BLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-61684973674654908592012-03-07T16:19:39.398+00:002012-03-07T16:19:39.398+00:00John/Bl,
I must admit I sometimes feel I am not as...John/Bl,<br />I must admit I sometimes feel I am not as gracious as perhaps I could be.<br />However as we well know this topic has caused many divisions in the professing Church. I suppose mainly because there are irreconcilable differences?<br />If you believe and (know?)that something is wrong, it is very hard to find the appropriate words without obviously causing offence or distress. This is NOT my intention.<br />I do believe in the coming glorious Millenial kingdom. There are far too many scriptures in the Old Testament that have not been fulfilled that WILL be literally fulfilled.<br />I believe that the Church has NOT replaced Israel. God has NOT finished with his covenant people; Romans 11. I believe that the Church was the 'little flock' in Luke 12.32. The Church started of as a 'little flock' of Jewish believers, this is also confirmed by Matthew 16.18 & 18.17. So the Church was NOT born at Pentecost as dispensationalists teach.<br />The believing Church and Israel cannot therefore be separated,we have a common destiny.<br />I agree there are 'reformed' views which exist today that are not far removed from what the RC Church teach. But you cannot label all alike! The reformation was obviously a mighty work of God, but once the reformers got rid of the Pope, I think the movement slowed rapidly down. I too have a copy of 'Foxes Book of Martyrs', it is a shame that didn't sell as well as Rob Bell's 'Love wins'!<br />I would far rather the rapture was pre-trib as it is more appealing to the flesh. <br />So I believe in the coming national conversion of Israel,Zech 12.10 and before that I believe that God will protect His people during the coming tribulation (although many will suffer at Satan's wrath) we will not be taken out of it beforehand, I suppose in the same way God protected Noah from the flood?<br />The blessed hope is I believe NOT deliverance from the tribulation,it is union with the Lord at His coming.<br />I believe it important to study bible prophecy (and I do in my spare time).Blogs like this have much value because I don't personally know of any individuals that want to discuss these things!<br />'Iron sharpeneth iron'; Proverbs 27.17.colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-5162820334265397722012-03-07T00:54:51.908+00:002012-03-07T00:54:51.908+00:00Deleted my previous comment because of a mistake. ...Deleted my previous comment because of a mistake. This is my revised comment!<br /><br />Thanks Colin<br /><br />I believe that God ordained, incorporated and developed the thinking/practice of Jewish customs in weddings to illustrate a very important picture to the Jewish mind (which would be understood by them in due course)about the coming of the Messiah and how He would choose His bride (the church) and how the first and second coming are shown within the whole wedding set up.<br /><br />If you look at each step you can see they illustrate very very clearly everything written in the NT which was spoken by Jesus and the apostles, i.e, it helps us to understand more clearly why Jesus and the apostles said certain things.<br /><br />I agree TOTALLY that we need to be careful that we do not read into scripture what is not there, though, because the Jewish wedding is NOT the bible but is "traditions of men", but it is incredible how Jesus does seem to have followed some (just some) of these traditions in His day to day teachings. Particularly important seems to be the tradition of the wedding. It is often elaborated upon throughout the Bible NT AND OT - especially by some of the prophets.<br /><br />So, if the traditions of the Jewish wedding are correct, would you not agree it points to a pretrib rapture? Especially poignant can be seen by how Jesus speaks in John 14. It VERY MUCH speaks about the Jewish wedding scenario.<br /><br />But, as I keep saying, I will not labour on this because it is NOT one of the deceptions we should be fighting against!<br /><br />How can a certain eschatological belief in pretrib, post trib etc be a deception?<br /><br />The purpose of deception is to lead people into a false faith, to believe in a false gospel, to believe in works to save us instead of grace, to lead us off the narrow path, to deviate us away from our calling etc etc i.e, to preach another Jesus and doctrines of demons. Quite honestly, eschatolgical views do not come into any of those categories.<br /><br />Besides, BL is correct that a wrong view of the rapture is not deceiving us into losing our faith, trust in Jesus and His pure undiluted gospel because having a correct/wrong view cannot prepare us any better for the Tribulation, anyway.<br /><br />It will ALWAYS be faith from beginning to end that prepares us. Eschatological views cannot do that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-54789936590297753952012-03-07T00:45:42.661+00:002012-03-07T00:45:42.661+00:00Colin, you overlooked the fact that Corrie ten Boo...Colin, you overlooked the fact that Corrie ten Boom's beliefs were Reformed. Reformed theology is not biblical as John has pointed out so well on this blog. <br /><br />To totally discount the concept of the Jewish wedding in application to Jesus Christ and His Bride is quite astounding to me. That is, of course if you subscribe to Reformed theology and do not believe in the difference between Israel and the Church or in the dispensations. <br /><br />Yes, there are areas where Christians are being persecuted and this is nothing new, just read Foxe's Book of Martyrs. But there has NEVER been a global persecution of ALL Christians like there will be in the Great Tribulation. This will be accompanied with upheavals in nature as never seen before. This will be a new and different time.<br /><br />You have obviously made up your mind and you will not budge. Fine, no problem. But I find it curious that opponents of pre-trib insist upon calling it false doctrine and don't even entertain the possiblity that it may be correct.You will find pre-tribber are not adamant, but merely present the view and I don't know of anyone who says those we believe otherwise are following false doctrine. <br /><br />And again I say, how exactly do you plan to prepare for the Tribulation? Does the Lord give us any intructions regarding this? <br /><br /><br />It is not our job to convince you - you have already made up your mind and you think pre-trib is false doctrine. Fine. That is your perogative. But let's not argue about it. Let's FOCUS on the LORD and living for Him. Even if there is no pre-trib Rapture as you maintain, so what? It will not destroy pre-tribbers. We will be living for Him and it won't matter. There are much more important concerns to discuss.<br /><br />I have had my final say on the matter.John has presented solid biblical support and there is nothing more to be said as far as I am concerned. May the Lord bless you.BLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-47712183538073446272012-03-06T17:12:20.695+00:002012-03-06T17:12:20.695+00:00John,
How can one KNOW if one is deceived? My unde...John,<br />How can one KNOW if one is deceived? My understanding is by daily checking the scriptures 'Whether these things are so' Acts 17.11.<br />As wonderful as a Jewish wedding may or may not be, analogys cannot teach biblical doctrine, only support it.<br />As you very correctly state,deception is rife in the so-called professing Church. However it is my belief that people will be deceived by any false teaching and that includes the timing of the Redeemer's return.<br />We are caught up in 1 Thess 4.17,1 Cor 15.52 and Matt 24.31; this is the coming and the appearing of the Lord. I won't speculate on how exactly He will take us up and bring us back to reign, I believe what He says;the secret things belong to the Lord, Deut 29.29.<br />BL,who exactly is a bible scholar? I believe that the bible is a book written for the ordinary man. I don't know of one man alive whom I consider to be an authority on scripture.<br />I believe that what Corrie wrote in 1974 deserves to be read again in these ever darkening days. Christians in many parts of the world are being persecuted and murdered for their faith.<br />I wonder how many laws have to change in this country before such things happen here? Only God can help us prepare to face the coming great tribulation.<br />I remember listening to Stuart Dool giving a talk at Bridge Lane about this.colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-17367130905327223462012-03-06T05:44:03.505+00:002012-03-06T05:44:03.505+00:00Thank you John - this is a beautiful picture of th...Thank you John - this is a beautiful picture of the Lord Jesus and His bloodbought Church. The Bridegroom is coming for His Bride and we look forward to seeing Him face to face! It says it all.BLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-60087697142044586352012-03-06T05:06:47.974+00:002012-03-06T05:06:47.974+00:00Colin, you refer to Corrie ten Boom. This woman ha...Colin, you refer to Corrie ten Boom. This woman had a wonderful and moving testimony of her experience in the concentration camp.<br /><br />With all due respect, she was not a Bible scholar and had no business condemning people who hold to pre-trib. She overshot her headlights here. She no doubt saw eschatology through the lens of her Dutch Reformed background. She can certainly not be regarded as an authority on the Bible.<br /><br />You are obviously convinced that pre-trib is a false doctrine. May I suggest we respect one another's viewpoint without passing judgment on it and move on?<br /><br />We can discuss this until the cows come home and never have a meeting of the minds. Let's dwell on points of agreement. But I do have one question to ask you.<br /><br />How do you suggest that we prepare to go through the Great Tribulation?<br /><br />What Corrie ten Boom went through was certainly horrific, but what is coming will be much worse than the Holocaust. So again, how do you suggest we prepare?BLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-36896178706722662952012-03-06T04:46:00.060+00:002012-03-06T04:46:00.060+00:00As promised I will not get caught up in debating o...As promised I will not get caught up in debating on this subject. I only say something if someone says something which verges on vital error, such as if someone states that those who do not teach the correct things regarding the rapture are deceivers. In this case, I cannot leave that unchallenged.<br /><br />However, I would like you all to please take a look at this excellent synopsis of the Jewish wedding which God set in place as a picture of Christ and the church. It is very revealing regarding the rapture.<br /><br />http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htmAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-62803020834151757442012-03-06T04:40:47.133+00:002012-03-06T04:40:47.133+00:00Post-tribs quote the term ‘exegesis’, proving they...Post-tribs quote the term ‘exegesis’, proving they know what is expected of them, yet seem unable to really supply evidence of exegesis. Triumphantly they point to Galatians 6:16 ‘The Israel of God’ as their ‘evidence’ that the Rapture and the 2nd Coming is the same thing – sort of - obtained by zero exegesis and much poking and shoving of their own brand of eisegesis.<br /><br />The context of Galatians is Paul coming against ‘Judaisers’ who are insisting the Gentile Galatians MUST be circumcised like the Jews. Paul is adamant that is a lie! Paul is not comparing Jews with Gentiles, or comparing Israel with the Church. Indeed, Paul is making it plain that the true Israel of God is the believing Jews, the remnant of Israel.<br /><br />This Israel of God AND (kai) the believing Gentiles are together the one new man, the Church. This badly interpreted verse is all Post has got – except for another, even lamer, claim that the Church has to be Israel because she is the ‘seed of Abraham’.<br /><br />Actually, Abraham was neither a Jew, nor an Israelite, he was a Gentile who BELIEVED God and his faith counted to him as righteousness in EXACTLY the same way that the Church has come into being – through FAITH, by the Grace of God.<br /><br />Not forgetting that when Israel and the Gentiles are industriously ‘begatting’; the Church, who is Christ’s Body and Bride are now married to Christ and are ruling and reigning with her bridegroom as ‘one’. The Body of Christ is not promised a land on earth to re-populate, her citizenship is even NOW in heavenly places where she awaits her Lord’s return for her. <br /><br />At the Snatching away, the dead in Christ are resurrected with IMMORTAL bodies (like the Angels) Likewise the living Body of Christ are changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and this mortal, puts on IMMORTALITY.<br /><br />The workplace will be on earth, but the marital home is in the Father’s House, to which Jesus went in order to prepare a place for her so that where He is, she is also for Eternity. Post-trib’s who have put their faith in Jesus to save them are horribly deceived with their erroneous theory, BUT are non-the-less still our brothers in Christ, when Jesus returns to snatch away His Bride before the Seven Year Tribulation begins, they too will rise at the Snatch.<br /><br />They are insulting the Character of God, and this offense will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and thrown into the fire along with all the other dead works each one of us has.<br /><br />That is true for all of us, wherever we have worked according to the flesh, thus failing to walk in The Spirit as instructed. Maranatha! http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdfMaranathanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-59153178879276379262012-03-06T04:27:23.061+00:002012-03-06T04:27:23.061+00:00The Bible describes two entirely different events ...The Bible describes two entirely different events that are impossible to occur at the same time. The Post view may as well not bother with the ‘snatch’ at all, as the 2nd Coming is a distinctly different scenario in detail.<br /><br />It would at least be more honest for them to say there is no Rapture at all, than trying to squeeze it into the event when Jesus is returning back to earth that He left 2000 years ago, accompanied WITH His Bride, the Church.<br /><br />A Post Rapture appears to be a ludicrous invention, as for all it’s blustering at denying Pre-trib it offers NO evidence for a Rapture whatsoever. They insist it has to be at the 2nd Coming – yet where? There is no viable Scripture to warrant such a position. All they can produce is the weird replacement view of Israel and the Church being one and the same entity, thereby Matt 24:31 when the Tribulation surviving Jews, the remnant of Israel, who finally faith in Jesus as the Messiah are rounded up from all around the earth, and re-gathered for the second, and final time, into the promised land of Israel God had promised to Abraham.<br /><br />For Post, this includes the Raptured Church! The purpose for being back in the land is to fulfil another promise to Abraham that from his seed a multitude would be born. The whole earth has been stripped of unbelievers, now these survivors are to marry and reproduce a new population for the nation of Israel.<br /><br />Surviving, believing Gentiles will do the same for all the other nations. Apparently Posts see the Church being among this mêlée busily reproducing along with the remnant of Israel??? (Think about it for a while)Maranathanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-9933758163401211592012-03-06T04:17:29.229+00:002012-03-06T04:17:29.229+00:00Did you know that the first part of the 7 is calle...Did you know that the first part of the 7 is called 1260 days when anticrist signs for 7 yrs with Israel and the 144k are sealed and the 2 witnessess do there thing until they are killed by the beast in the middle of the 7 thats when the aod is put up. the last 3 1/2 yrs is called 42 months when Anticrist goes mad and1260 days pluse 42 months comes to exactly 7 yrs (lunar) and its all bad from start to finish.<br /><br />in the 1260 days when anticrist takes peace from the EARTH theres to be worldwar and famine and drought and earthquakes and loads and loads of the killing of believers from right up to the middle of the 7 yrs (they are seen under the altar and wait for more to come) and thats when it gets mega bad for Israel as well as the rest of the world. Thats taking from what God has said and not sticking stuff in to make it fit with the mans idea that the 70th week is only 3 1/2 yrs long. God says plainly its 7 yrs and it starts when the signing is done with Israel.<br /><br />Next up is when anticrist wants to be worshiped as God with 666. Thats not when he is revealed at all, its at the start of the SEVEN yrs and thats what exegesis says and fits with all the sums God has given to see as plain as plain can be. 1260 days plus 42 months is sums not guesses.<br /><br />I shant go no father with this as I know the sums make it dead plain that it IS seven years long it just gets worst after the aod is set up in the middle of the seve yrs. ok. cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-23441145267077284392012-03-06T04:09:31.188+00:002012-03-06T04:09:31.188+00:00Hi Colin
The whole chapter 24 of Matthew is a bui...Hi Colin<br /><br />The whole chapter 24 of Matthew is a build up of Jesus's presentation of the Second Coming. It is a stark warning that everyone should be ready for that Second Coming because of the severe consequences if they are not saved during those last days.<br /><br />Jesus starts by saying that the days preceding the end, will be marked by deception. Jesus first warned His disciples against the deceivers. He then went on to give a description of everything else. His warning about deceivers was not related to their erroneous teaching of the rapture but to the heresy of what they will teach about Jesus Himself. Verse 4 was just a starting point in introducing the topic. i.e, firstly be prepared that there will be false messiahs. He warned them not to believe them because His Second Coming will be completely different, which is ....... He then explained it. So the deception was not about their teaching of eschatology but that they were teaching that the Messiah was already here.<br /><br />Sounds similar to the Latter Rain and New age teachings of the Christ within us as we all become Christ on this Earth now bringing in a messianic kingdom.<br /><br />Verse 4 can be likened to the following passages of scripture<br /><br />Paul warned:<br /><br />1 Tim 4:1<br />"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."<br /><br />2 Tim 3:1-4<br />"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power."<br /><br />From Peter in 2 Peter 2:1-3:<br />"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words;"<br /><br />The last days will be marked by deception IN THE CHURCH not just outside the church.<br /><br />In the opening verses of Matthew 24 Jesus is not warning against the deception of false raptural teachings but against false teachings about Jesus Himself. As Paul puts it "another Jesus"<br /><br />The crux/purpose of Jesus's message in Matthew 24 is NOT about the deception of wrong rapture teachings but as per verse 3:<br /><br />"what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”<br /><br />It was a general overview of all the events leading up to His Coming. As stated already the purpose was as a mission to the church to warn (not debate with each other) the lost that they need to be saved BEFORE all these things happen for surely it will happen and these are the signs. When we see these things happen it should alert us to the urgency of preaching the gospel. The crux is not about getting our theology spot on regarding the rapture but keeping to the truth of the GOSPEL (or the vital primary foundational teachings of our faith) and preaching it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-72786190146763486002012-03-05T16:50:38.793+00:002012-03-05T16:50:38.793+00:00John/BL,
In the context of Matthew 24. 3-5, I beli...John/BL,<br />In the context of Matthew 24. 3-5, I believe that the Lord is warning about deception regarding the SIGN of His coming and the 'end of the age'. In this discourse He goes on to describe the 'Abomination of desolation', and the signs in the heavens among other things that are to come before His glorious pariousia. There are other places where the Lord warns against deception.<br />This 'secret pre-trib rapture' theory is not taught anywhere in the bible. I think it is a bit like the teaching of evolution in a way; people believe what they are taught.<br />As believers our testimony is to carry on to the 'End of the age' Matthew 28.20, not until seven years before the end.<br />Acts 3.20-21 KJV;'And he shall send Jesus Christ,which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must recieve until the restitution of all things,which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.' Again not until seven years before the end.<br />I can't claim to fully understand what exactly are the ramifications of believing what I consider to be an unbiblical teaching other than they may have eternal consequences. How can it be a light thing to believe/teach something that is not taught in the bible?<br />As you know teachers will receive the greater condemnation. I can now begin to believe the vital import of James 3.1<br /><br />Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's 1974 letter?colinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07132820921599851331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-23173079196235526412012-03-05T01:41:17.296+00:002012-03-05T01:41:17.296+00:00The crux of the difference seems to hinge on one&#...The crux of the difference seems to hinge on one's view of Israel and if one subscribes to Replacement Theology. That would intersect with one's position on dispensations, if they are indeed biblical. <br /><br />Therein lies the problem with discussions on echatology. John has clearly stated his position and defended it with Scripture. One either agrees or not.<br /><br />Colin, I appreciate your concern for truth as does the author of this blog but this is an area that can distract from the truly important matters of the Church such as salvation and discipling.<br /><br /><br />We must respect one another after we have spoken our piece on our views. Most importantly we must be looking up and in a state of expectation and preparation as a lifestyle. <br /><br />Thank you for expressing your thoughts.BLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-89574370364426450502012-03-05T00:35:22.357+00:002012-03-05T00:35:22.357+00:00The purpose of eschatology (as I understand it) is...The purpose of eschatology (as I understand it) is to encourage us to look upward and to always be prepared for His Second Coming. It is to encourage our faith as we see prophecies being fulfilled before our eyes. To speculate on things which have not yet happened, is to miss the point of prophecy.<br /><br />We should use prophecy to warn the unsaved of what will happen if they do not repent and receive Jesus. It is not to debate to such an extent that we start calling one another deceivers. This is wrong, unloving and divides the church needlessly.<br /><br />It is those who preach a false Christ and preach a false way of salvation through ecumenism, that need to be exposed - not those who have (what we consider to be) a faulty stance on the rapture.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-89733031054729401092012-03-05T00:23:50.288+00:002012-03-05T00:23:50.288+00:00Matthew 24:4-5 actually reads:
"Jesus answer...Matthew 24:4-5 actually reads:<br /><br />"Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many."<br /><br />I may have elaborated a bit on what Jesus said. I was including other scriptures which Paul elaborated on by inspiration by the Holy Spirit. Paul talked about this deception in the last days as per my last comment.<br /><br />So I am sure (if Paul gained that information) that Jesus wasn't just warning us about false messiah's but against all sorts of false teachers and false prophets.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842260823875796403.post-30598947033434895082012-03-05T00:15:38.196+00:002012-03-05T00:15:38.196+00:00Hi Colin
As already stated, I will not get involv...Hi Colin<br /><br />As already stated, I will not get involved in the debate. All I will say here (because I believe it to be vitally important) is that the deception Jesus was referring to (in context)is NOT related to the timing of the rapture but to false prophets speaking lies rather than truth.<br /><br />Jesus is saying that the end days before His second Coming are marked by pretense in the church by those preaching lies about Jesus and His gospel spreading poison seeking to deceive the elect to turn away from the pure gospel. It will also include those who preach a false Christ or another Jesus.<br /><br />We are warned out to watch out for these false prophets. We are NOT actually being warned to watch out out for wrong teachings on eschatology (which can be rather speculative - the bible says we should not get involved in vain speculations which can cause unnecessary division.<br /><br />BL is so correct by pointing out that those things are not vital regarding our salvation.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04713448621601972014noreply@blogger.com